Sharpening

[D_W]

"Joseph Moxon’s book Mechanick Exercises is the grandfather of all modern DIY manuals.
Published in 1683–5,"
In fact taking more time and effort into making things than functionally required goes back to the stone age.

Except nobody is really doing that here. You're just busy with cob on your hands trying to build strawmen that will stand up.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The goal is to sharpen tools such they can work the selected materials to the desired standard. It matters not at all which method is used to do the sharpening.

I would observe that:

• those who make a living using sharp tools will gravitate towards those methods which minimise effort to maximise the time devoted to producing. They have a lifetime of work to "hone " their sharpening techniques.
• the hobbyist may never spend sufficient time on their hobby to optimise sharpening skills. They will adopt the approach which, for them, provides consistently sharp tools. This may reasonably involve jigs.
• companies promote products to generate profits. Some will deliver functionality at a reasonable price,. Others promote no end of potions , abrasive variants, assorted jigs and machines in pursuit of sales and profit. If buyers feel it enhances their sharpening efforts - great!

Interesting as the last 20 pages of posts are, dogmatic attachment to any one method is daft.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

pocket knives weren't uncommon when I was a kid in school early on, either. I don't remember anyone having them sharp, but stuff like swiss army knives and such were sort of toys.

I recall a much older aunt talking about going to school in the 40s or 50s and how at some point, they stopped allowing kids to bring guns to rural schools in the US.

If you're wondering what the kids were doing with guns......

..........they were taking them to school to trade (think hunting rifles and shotguns), sometimes trading with teachers.

By the 90s, the schools took liberties breaking into students cars and doing random searches at any time. But guess what they were really looking for...
.......kids who brought cigarettes onto school property, even in a car. Automatic suspension. Do recall one kid getting "caught" with some restaurant prep knife in his car trunk - which he probably only had because he'd lifted it from his workplace. Not the kind of kid to ever be involved in offensive physical altercations, but suspended nonetheless in the first instance I ever saw of a "zero tolerance" rule at school in the 90s.

Here in my part of Pennsyltucky (rural), in the late 60’s, one shop class at the public school built muzzleloaders (I went to a parochial school). pocketknives were common, as were shotguns or rimfire rifles in cars, for hunting after school.

 

[D_W]

Here in my part of Pennsyltucky (rural), in the late 60’s, one shop class at the public school built muzzleloaders (I went to a parochial school). pocketknives were common, as were shotguns or rimfire rifles in cars, for hunting after school.

when my aunt relayed that, I guess her kids or maybe some friends - not sure which - were telling her of how much more strict schools were getting - this being long before me. Because she remembered well enough to repeat to me "we thought it was ridiculous. If the kids aren't allowed to bring guns to school and put them in their lockers, how are they going to trade them?"

I'm sure that a lot of the kids were also hunting right after school - my dad relayed the same. They'd get home, and if there were no obligations, something fresh for dinner was always nice as probably was the unwinding of walking the farm and getting outside. Not sure what happened - he mentioned shooting a lot of pheasants and rabbits, but that at some point, small game seemed to go scarce, and not with any change in hunting. In my area, it was probably a decline in deer hunters and changes in farming practices and machine efficiency eliminating cover and food (spilled seeds or cobs out of the combines).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

When I was eleven or twelve the village boys nearly all had their own shotguns. 1966ish.

 

[D_W]

When I was eleven or twelve the village boys nearly all had their own shotguns. 1966ish.

same here. single shot 20 gauge type shotguns or combination types (rimfire and small bore shotguns) were the fare of poor men and kids.....mostly to give the kids something to hunt with, preventing "borrowing" of better guns from the cabinet getting scuffed up on the woods, dropped and dragged over fences.

I'm in line to inherit a few of the "dad's guns" that are well worn, but haven't got a clue what I'll do with them. Once the kids guns got in poor shape, they were relegated to barns or livestock buildings to be used to shoot rats or used as a "pig gun" to off a pig before processing. My father still has my father in law's single shot pig gun and despite cleaning and removing rust from the thing, it still has a little smell of pig poo if you clean your nasal palate and open the action and take a whiff.

missing in this now is the idea that the guns could be stolen if they were just left out in the open in various buildings, especially when itinerant farm workers would help in various parts of the year. I've never heard of it occurring within the group of relatives. Now that people keep them inside and nice, it sounds like it's not uncommon- and probably drug related - not from dealers, but addicts who lose their sense.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Most of ours were 410s.

 

[Jacob]

Wen ar worra lad we all ad Thompson sub machine guns and and grenades. But kids today...

 

[D_W]

dogmatic attachment to any one method is daft.

it would be super dandy at some point if people started comparing the results of their sharpening rather than their methods. $20 for a hand scope is a bridge too far, I guess.

I used to peruse a razor forum. I would antagonize (not intentionally) the group of method folks who had this that and the other comment about how poorly their straight razor would shave, hold up, or whatever else.

"I think you need a small hand held scope. I think you will find your problem as that you either have not honed all of the archaic damage from the edge of a razor last shaved with 50 years ago and then mishandled, or you'll find that you're sharpening lots of stuff most of the time, but getting an undamaged edge with the fine scratches reaching the edge on both sides after eliminating defects probably will fail to appear. When you make it appear, you'll be surprised how well the razor shaves"

"no way...you don't know what you're talking about.. I did a 5 stone progression with honing pyramids and there's no way I didn't reach the edge. The razor is defective, it's microchipping but it's possible that I overhoned it".

After a few months, a couple of people bought hand held scopes and taking pictures took off. None of them had finished their razors to the edge for various reasons (if you think it's hard to hone tools properly for beginners, imagine picking up an old straight razor and trying to reshape it and then hone it to a finish to the very tip from end to end on both sides - where you can't use much physical pressure).

Then it became standard to show results (pictures from a scope, and what magnification) and ask if they were good enough rather than ask about the method.

I still don't think most people on those forums have a clue what overhoned means, but that hobby sort of blew up about the same time that hand tool woodworking did, and there's a lot less in earnest done on both at this point.

 

[Jacob]

it would be super dandy at some point if people started comparing the results of their sharpening rather than their methods.

We do it all the time by using the tools. Every time we sharpen we compare/contrast before and after, or compare different planes used on the same job or different jobs. In fact it's a continuous lifetime's study!

.... I didn't reach the edge.

The one sure check of reaching the edge is feeling the burr - right across the blade.

....

I still don't think most people on those forums have a clue what overhoned means,

Er, true! What does overhoned mean, other than carrying on longer than you needed to?

but that hobby sort of blew up about the same time that hand tool woodworking did,

Hand tool woodworking has been going strong for thousands of years. Hobby shaving is very new and very much a minority interest, except in Brazil!

and there's a lot less in earnest done on both at this point.

True there aren't many earnest shavers in my experience.

 

[D_W]

We do it all the time by using the tools. Every time we sharpen we compare/contrast before and after, or compare different planes used on the same job or different jobs. In fact it's a continuous lifetime's study!

The one sure check of reaching the edge is feeling the burr - right across the blade.

Er, true! What does overhoned mean, other than carrying on longer than you needed to?

Hand tool woodworking has been going strong for thousands of years. Hobby shaving is very new and very much a minority interest, except in Brazil!

True there aren't many earnest shavers in my experience.

I'd guess the number of shavers was probably bigger than the number of hand tool woodworkers by a long shot. I don't know where they came from or why they wanted to use straight razors.

Feeling a burr is only part of the confirmation that you reached the edge. There is some discretion in how big the burr needs to be so that you don't come up short when you don't want to and so that you don't just rely on raising a huge burr and waste time. You can create a pretty significant burr and feel it past the edge without the honing actually being done all the way to the edge.

Overhoned is a shaving topic I'd only explain to someone actually shaving - it's not complicated, but it involves understanding context when the term was popular to explain why it makes no sense with a bunch of ultrafine modern abrasives.

 

[Jacob]

I'd guess the number of shavers was probably bigger than the number of hand tool woodworkers by a long shot. I don't know where they came from or why they wanted to use straight razors.

Sounds alarming! Have they surrounded the house?
Non around here at all but I know dozens of hand tool woodworkers.

Feeling a burr is only part of the confirmation that you reached the edge. There is some discretion in how big the burr needs to be

How big does the burr need to be?

...

Overhoned is a shaving topic I'd only explain to someone actually shaving

what, on zoom, skype or something?

- it's not complicated, but it involves understanding context when the term was popular to explain why it makes no sense with a bunch of ultrafine modern abrasives.

A bit of a of cult secret?

 

[D_W]

How big does the burr need to be?

what, on zoom, skype or something?

A bit of a of cult secret?

The burr needs to be big enough so that the apex of the honed edge is finished and clear when you're done. It's easy to create a burr, hone through removing it and not remove the actual edge, or not remove damage in an edge. Both are kind of pointless.

Overhoning is a simple term - I'll post something in the OT thread about it. The desire of the shaving forums because a few people answered the question before knowing what it actually was, was to create some convoluted answer that didn't make any sense but allowed someone an out to say "I think you overhoned the razor and the edge is fragile".

With good steel, that doesn't actually happen. Sort of like the comment about waterstones, it's based on the mistake of deciding an answer must make sense with what's available in the last 40 years.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

 

[WideningGyre]

 

[Jacob]

....

Overhoning is a simple term - ....

It's OK I googled it. I didn't think it would bring anything up - I know all about it now!
https://shavelibrary.com/w/OverhoningPS pages and pages of fascinating stuff. Belgian Hones - Shave Library

 

[WideningGyre]

Well, besides waffles Belgians are certainly know for their.... shaving. Cleanest shaved population of all modern Western democracies. That's saying something too.

 

[D_W]

It's OK I googled it. I didn't think it would bring anything up - I know all about it now!
https://shavelibrary.com/w/OverhoningPS pages and pages of fascinating stuff. Belgian Hones - Shave Library

good lord, the false definitions of it live on in a "wiki". I guess they don't want to answer why the truly fine natural stones (that were expensive) often advertised that they "would not overhone".

The idea that a wire edge will somehow grow and grow in in some way that damages an edge is a little odd. I posted a picture in OT. the edge shown is off of the hone. on fine stone, there is no appreciable burr.

I have belgian hones, of course. but only three at this point. There used to be a huge trade in them with a gaggle of mines selling stones near seams ( the ones good for razors ) to shavers and carpenters. the "blue stone" away from the seam has value for architectural use, and can also be a hone. The yellow by itself is unstable.

there is one company now (ardennes) retailing hones and they're not that great compared to a lot of older hones, at least not what's retailed and they can be *really* expensive, like $350 for an 8x3 bench stone. there's nuance to using them that's beyond the scope of this forum - you can get a little more out of a stone than its coarseness would suggest on a razor with a light touch and experimenting - but the good ones are fine and no matter how you rub a razor on them, the razor is sharp. $100-$350 depending on size for an iffy outcome is not so great. you can buy pulled (kept in reserve) stones for what appears to be even more - maybe those are the ones that would measure up to better older hones.

not a single one of them is as fine as micronized pigments that cost a few dollars and can be gotten from kremer pigments or any other art supply place that sells high quality pigments.

The fact the definitions in that page still have legs is....it's just boggling.

 

[D_W]

Well, besides waffles Belgians are certainly know for their.... shaving. Cleanest shaved population of all modern Western democracies. That's saying something too.

I never knew that - kind of took a shine to the shaving thing, though, too, trying to figure out where the modern kitted up version didn't connect with the "my grandfather had one tube of fine honing paste and one strop and used it all his life" stories.

Turn of the century catalogues, though, are loaded with the belgian coticule hones. As in, even the catalogues in the US - the stones were just rebadged/stamped by pike and carborundum corp, etc. The garnet particles in their stones are kind of round and relatively gentle on edges for their size - much different concept than just making a finer and finer (but sharp and pointy) abrasive.

 

[WideningGyre]

If garnet is so magical, then why not garnet sandpaper on glass? Or loose garnet?

https://www.barton.com/garnet-abrasives/
Garnet powder:

https://www.barton.com/garnet-powders/