sharpening why a curved plane blade

[engineer one]

i know it ain't metalwork,
but a lot of modern talk is about accuracy which is beyond the average piece of wood(solid)

cambered blades have been around for years because they were developed for use in wooden plane bodies which were not capable of too much adjustment laterally, so a curve gave more chances to get it right, but you plane a smaller cross section of the plank (me)

as for the edge planing, in general you try to make the edge at 90 degrees to the face, to do that properly the plane face must be at 90 degrees to the wood face at which point i think flat is better, because it is easier to take one complete set of shavings along a piece than keep moving the plane across to account for the curved blade.

however mike w is right, anyone can sharpen, it is the next stage that is scary, and yes i have sharpened cold chisels, but no worries about scary sharp.

alf if metal work bores you i understand, but relate to wood, the most important first job is to plane the wood flat and square to an almost finished size. same idea, different tools, so does planing the wood bore you too? (only ask)

what i am trying to get at is that we have recently spent a lot of time here and in magazines learning about tools being sharp, but the ideas all move forward, and people get entrenched in a viewpoint, and often ignore newer ideas. yet everyday there is a new brand of sharpening gizmo on the market.
as a beginner where do you start, and then where do you stop?

surely it is time to have a standard starting off point for those with a little money and some enthusiasm, then steps up the ladder.

but when there are so many differing views is it any wonder people say s*d it??

it seems the answer is no one really knows why we persevere with curved blades except it seems for some it works, and others do not even notch the edges because it works for them

confuse you will be!!!!!!!!!!!
but i hope we have all learned a little more, and i thank you for the input.
paul :wink: :lol:

 

[Midnight]

Just try it and see I used to struggle along with a straight ground blade too

OK.... firstly... Tony... I understand the point you're making...honestly I hear what you're sayin bro... thing is.. a curved blade on its own aint gonna cut it... ya gotta look at the whole system...

For me, it breaks down cos, well firstly, I don't have a vice capable of holding stock vertically; edges for the planing of...

Secondly... when I did... the instabilities in my bench rendered it impossible to edge joint a board; the plane never stood a chance of staying on the edge of the board... soooooo....

I built the shooting board... it lets me work without the face vice, allows superb accuracy irrespective of how the bench is wiggling around on its castors... and the method of work falls well inside the domain of "no brainer".... once its set up its impossible to get it wrong...

In short... this system, my system, works within the limitations of my bench, my tools and my capabilities.... when it aint broke, why fix it...???

 

[MikeW]

...snip...
cambered blades have been around for years because they were developed for use in wooden plane bodies which were not capable of too much adjustment laterally, so a curve gave more chances to get it right,

Hey Paul,
Historically inaccurate. This assumes people couldn't/didn't sharpen their irons straight. I have seen 200 year old planes that have irons untouch for countless years that are a true 90*--at least close enough.

In fact, most of what we call bench planes I have ever seen where the irons have been undisturbed for years are straight across, no camber. Few with eased corners. At least the owners of the planes that I have seen thus evidently didn't bother to camber the blades.

...snip...as for the edge planing, in general you try to make the edge at 90 degrees to the face, to do that properly the plane face must be at 90 degrees to the wood face at which point i think flat is better, because it is easier to take one complete set of shavings along a piece than keep moving the plane across to account for the curved blade.

But see, it is better for you. And better for me. But that does not invalidate the practice of shaping the edge with a cambered blade. I've seen it done. That I cannot replicate it is my failing, not that act of using a cambered blade.

I tried it to broaden my experience. Just like using a Gent's saw or a Japanese saw for cutting dovetails. I can't do it. I twist my wrist. I should say I did back when I tried it. I do like smaller saws for small scale work, so I'm going to hunt down a nice oldie Gent's saw (don't say it Alf... :roll: ) and buy it. Sharpen it up and give it another try. Pint being that just because I have not been able to use a Gent's saw accurately doesn't mean it cannot be done.

And it doesn't mean I wouldn't recommend it for another person if they needed a saw and had the opportunity to purchanse one for joinery purposes. And I could help them learn how to use it whether or not I can.

...snip....
what i am trying to get at is that we have recently spent a lot of time here and in magazines learning about tools being sharp, but the ideas all move forward, and people get entrenched in a viewpoint, and often ignore newer ideas. yet everyday there is a new brand of sharpening gizmo on the market.

Please don't confuse people who have found what works for them with people who scoff or reject out of hand new ways of sharpening. I'm not sure I've read that here. That there are new gizmos on the market nearly every day should only serve to illustrate many people struggle with sharpening and the companies making the stuff feed off that. (Ok, that and they know they can always sell to people who tend buy anything new.)

There are very few true advances in sharpening. It has and will remain at its most basic rubbing a steel something against a rock.

The few advances are in the material a stone is made from, as well as one true advance in a powered sharpening machine. Other than that, nothing is new.

Jigs come out all the time. Most are remakes of ones from the past. Some are so innovative I think the "inventors" have never sharpened something in their lives outside an office. People with experience can recognize these failings. So why try it? And why not tell someone asking about it on a public forum how we think it suffers?

...snip...
as a beginner where do you start, and then where do you stop?
surely it is time to have a standard starting off point for those with a little money and some enthusiasm, then steps up the ladder.

but when there are so many differing views is it any wonder people say s*d it??

it seems the answer is no one really knows why we persevere with curved blades except it seems for some it works, and others do not even notch the edges because it works for them

As a beginner, where did you start and stop? It'll be different for everyone, or nearly so. There are no shortcuts. There can be no standards. People on the forums always try to keep budget in mind--if the questioner will actually give it.

Paul, again, you are making a conclusion or a distinction where it doesn't belong. It isn't perseverence. And it isn't an issue of whether or not "it works." It is people that are the variable, not camber or eased corners on an iron. People. Plain and simple.

If a question like, "what is the best sharpening stone" is asked, it will get a variety of answers. I'll say Shaptons. Derek will say Kings. Alf will say oil stones. But the responders will usually ask about budget, past experience etc. By needing to know these things or simply taking the time to lay out various options, that should indicate there cannot be a standard. There are too many variables.

...snip...
but i hope we have all learned a little more, and i thank you for the input.
paul :wink: :lol:

I'm not sure anyone really learned anything from this exchange, Paul. Sorry. At least not something "new."

Take care, Mike

 

[Alf]

In fact, most of what we call bench planes I have ever seen where the irons have been undisturbed for years are straight across, no camber.

Interesting. I see a lot of cambered blades in old wooden planes - regional/international differences? Coincidence? Anyone care?

so I'm going to hunt down a nice oldie Gent's saw (don't say it Alf... :roll: ) and buy it.

:-#

There are very few true advances in sharpening. It has and will remain at its most basic rubbing a steel something against a rock.

Sometimes involving water, if you're unlucky... :wink:

If a question like, "what is the best sharpening stone" is asked, it will get a variety of answers. I'll say Shaptons. Derek will say Kings. Alf will say oil stones.

Well actually I'd probably say "duck" first. :lol: But oilstones? Well probably not, actually. Certainly not alone anyway. But I digress.

...snip...
but i hope we have all learned a little more, and i thank you for the input.
paul :wink: :lol:

I'm not sure anyone really learned anything from this exchange, Paul.

I have. But none of it to do with woodworking.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

I built the shooting board...

In short... this system, my system, works within the limitations of my bench, my tools and my capabilities.... when it aint broke, why fix it...???

Can't argue with that mate :wink: Enjoy

 

[MikeW]

...Snip...
If a question like, "what is the best sharpening stone" is asked, it will get a variety of answers. I'll say Shaptons. Derek will say Kings. Alf will say oil stones.

Well actually I'd probably say "duck" first. :lol: But oilstones? Well probably not, actually. Certainly not alone anyway. But I digress.
Cheers, Alf

Oh that's right...how's the paste working? Or, what are you using these days. Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol:

Mike

 

[Alf]

Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol:

I tried that, but it turns out the pesky things still need sharpening. I know, I was disgusted too. :evil: As for the paste, how should I know if it's working? Not done anything to need sharpening for ages. Still it'll be a good test of whether you can leave it for a long time between uses and still use it I suppose. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Or are you using Derek's method of buying new blades? :lol:

I tried that, but it turns out the pesky things still need sharpening. I know, I was disgusted too. :evil: Cheers, Alf

ROTFL...When I started buying LV / LN planes I always ordered spare blades. I learned real quick that if I skipped sharpening it was exactly twice the chore :lol:

Have fun!

Mike

 

[engineer one]

mike w i have spent a couple of days thinking about your comments in particular as well as the others.
as usual , you are cogent and informative in your comments.

i must remember that i am but a lowly amateur woodworker, and cannot these days call myself a carpenter, but i love working in wood, and prefer to be able to work properly by hand, but am at the age where time is running even faster than me.

you were and are lucky to have had a grandfather and father who taught you to sharpen. few of my acquaintances have been so. the newest carpenter i know is my mates 22 year old, and his dad is a music teacher, so no sharpening knowledge there.

anyway it does worry me that in your country people have gone to court to sue a company for selling them hot coffee, and now i have to have
travel cups which say "this is hot and may burn you" DOH!!! #-o

i feel that very soon some of the older established and more accountant run companies may well start to sell planes and chisels firstly with blunt blades in case someone uses them to cut things, and then later the blades will be separate. don't laugh it is no different from hot coffee. that is no dig at you , but there is this dichotomy in america, where common sense is sometimes lacking.

i was looking for a realistic answer to curved blades, what i have found is that practice is what seems to make people use them, they either can or can't get on with them.

in the example mentioned of planing the edge, particularly one at less than 90 degrees, i cannot see how a curved blade makes it easier to cut a flat square edge. whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.

as for plane tracks, i believe that some relief of the edges will help this, but also planing as if you were painting has some benefits too. ie. overlap your strokes. if you are finishing, then the wafer thin strips should not leave any tracks.

i have learnt a bunch, mainly that there is no right or wrong way, only what works for each person, and what they are comfortable with.
i know mike that you work mainly by hand, and you also teach both of which i find admirable. you also find time to talk here and help us learn too, which is really nice. you appear to be very open minded, but many contributors seem too pedantic.

it is obvious that learning to sharpen in the first place is a chore, but you are right it does get easier. however with so many conflicting views i think that it is important to give the newcomers an agreed starting point, and that does not seem to happen now.

each author has a different view, and approach to teaching it, but forget often that they had to start somewhere and have only got to their present skill by practice and experimenting. a novice needs to be given the confidence that wherever they start, it will get better and more effective.

now what i need to learn, is how to put the highlighted comments into a posting.

all the best
paul :

 

[Midnight]

now what i need to learn, is how to put the highlighted comments into a posting.

dead easy...

use your mouse to highlight the line(s) you want to copy... right click and copy said lines... paste them into your post... re-highlight them before hitting the "Quote" button above the message window...

gotta be blonde proof before I can manage..

 

[MikeW]

No problem Paul.

And to tell the truth, I couldn't frame a house or build a porch to save my soul if it wasn't for the people who help me. I don't know why I can't get understand building on that scale, but I cannot.

Don't even get me started on electric things. Scares me.

As for my grandfather, oh how I miss him. The quit whittling at a lake high in the mountains in Washington state. Or working in his basement shop. And, his patience with me. His hand on mine helping me to guide my first carving using his tools. Yup. I count myself extremely fortunate.

i have learnt a bunch, mainly that there is no right or wrong way, only what works for each person, and what they are comfortable with.

This is the main truth I think most here try to communicate. It is, as I do, usually within the context of "here's what I do." This is because it is natural to teach what is known or most familiar. The great thing, I think, about these forums is so many more voices can be heard than by a single book.

But maybe therein lies part of the problem, too. Many more options. More choices. Perhaps for some it is either a blessing or a curse., perhaps it is both. I consider it a blessing.

It is sometimes best to walk away. To, as you did, think about the advice and quietly try those things. Often you will find one which just works for you. Perhaps you will not--but in turn find a way to accomplish the task at hand "on your own."

a novice needs to be given the confidence that wherever they start, it will get better and more effective.

And so it will. It still does for me.

Take care,

Mike

 

[engineer one]

mike w

It is sometimes best to walk away. To, as you did, think about the advice and quietly try those things. Often you will find one which just works for you. Perhaps you will not--but in turn find a way to accomplish the task at hand "on your own."

you are right but how the bloody hell do i walk quietly away with all my planes and chisels?? now i have to build a mobile till. oh the dream jobs we give ourselves.

thought though could plane tracks be to do with the wood too??

seems to me that sometimes wood is easy to plane and other times the same type is tough as old boots, so you use different pressure each time, and thus give yourself a chance to "dig in". and these days sadly so little grain is straight, that we are often plaining across and therefore tear out is more inevitable than not and so plane tracks. only a thought but!!!! (*,)

its good to get help across the board, and at least i learnt one thing!

paul
may all your shavings be plane!!! :lol:

 

[bugbear]

in the example mentioned of planing the edge, particularly one at less than 90 degrees, i cannot see how a curved blade makes it easier to cut a flat square edge.

Because a (subtly) curved blade in a plane allows one to cut a perfectly controlled tapered shaving. If the plane is held central there is no taper (a slightly hollow cut, see below). Removal of tapered shavings under full control allows an edge to be made square.

whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.

I don't think you have appreciated the appropriate degree of curvature for this process. The sagitta is on the order of 4-5 thou.

BugBear

 

[Jake]

anyway it does worry me that in your country people have gone to court to sue a company for selling them hot coffee, and now i have to have
travel cups which say "this is hot and may burn you" DOH!!! #-o

i feel that very soon some of the older established and more accountant run companies may well start to sell planes and chisels firstly with blunt blades in case someone uses them to cut things, and then later the blades will be separate. don't laugh it is no different from hot coffee. that is no dig at you , but there is this dichotomy in america, where common sense is sometimes lacking.

http://www.atla.org/pressroom/FACTS/fri ... ecase.aspx

 

[Alf]

whilst this may not matter for an edge which is jointed for boards to join together, but when the edge is the viewed part of the plank, then surely a curved blade will chomp away a considerable part of the section.

I don't think you have appreciated the appropriate degree of curvature for this process. The sagitta is on the order of 4-5 thou.

Beat me to it, BB. To translate, what BB means is the curve is very slight. :wink:

Something also got swallowed up in other things like edge jointing earlier, that is the practice of just "knocking off" the corners to avoid the tracks. It's a widely used method; I have read some claims that you theoretically could get tear-out at the side of the blade, but in practice I don't know and I can't believe it's an issue in the real world. I find the benefit of using a camber instead is I can switch between a slightly rougher cut, edge jointing and smoothing all with the same blade in the same plane. May not be good practice, but handy when you only have a limited kit available, and once you get in the habit it tends to stick.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here :
This thread is rediculous!
Cutting tool edges come in all kinds of shapes. Get used to that concept. Bench planes (or leveling planes if you prefer) should have cambered blades, period. No exceptions. The camber or sagitta (thanks, bugbear) can range from around 1/8" to maybe .001". This doesn't make woodworking harder or waste time time tuning tools. It makes it faster and easier. The straighter across the blade is, the more highly tuned the plane must be to work. Would you use only 400 grit sandpaper because the concept of having multiple grits is too scary?
Joint cutting planes (jointers, rabbets, dados, tongue & groove, etc) should have straight edges.
Molding planes have curvy edges. How about that? No need to shy away.
If you are going to woodwork with handtools you will need to learn to sharpen all kinds of edges. Gouges, carving tools, auger bits, saws, et. al.
It is just a necessary chore.

 

[Philly]

Very good, Roger!
Should I do my best " insulted by purist" impersonation? :lol: :lol:
Cheers
Philly :wink:

 

[MikeW]

I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here :
This thread is rediculous!

Ridiculous to you obviously. Maybe to others as well. Thank you for an attempt at invalidating both Paul's questioning and my and others' attempts at helping.

Cutting tool edges come in all kinds of shapes. Get used to that concept. Bench planes (or leveling planes if you prefer) should have cambered blades, period. No exceptions.

Really? Guess I've done it wrong since, well, my entire hand planing life. Thank you for that bit of absolutism. I must run out to the shop and change 20 or 30 blades to comply.

Molding planes have curvy edges. How about that? No need to shy away.

So? Aren't they suppose to? Oops, that's right. My bench planes have to as well.

If you are going to woodwork with handtools you will need to learn to sharpen all kinds of edges. Gouges, carving tools, auger bits, saws, et. al. It is just a necessary chore.

Guess that's obvious.

Folks, while we obviously have sharpening disagreements, the above is a bit pompous and assuming. Neither does it help someone new to all this--regardless of how questioning they are, or how they phrase the questions.

For many, they feel intimidated and seek to fully understanmd before acting or attempting something that seems wrong or strange. Others just try without reason. Neither accomplishes what they desire. It takes time. Trial. Perseverance. Sometimes, it takes a person what appears to some to be obstinance or being argumentitive. Some can phrase questions better than others.

Big freaking deal. Answer don't answer. But at least try to be constructive in your reply.

I'm not good around people and should not have been let out of my cage this morning. Guess I'll go back to work with my imperfectly shaped plane blades.

Mike
the (mainly) straight blader who doesn't know better.

 

[Alf]

I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here :
This thread is rediculous!

Bet Adam can spell ridiculous though :wink:

The camber or sagitta (thanks, bugbear)

Heavens, don't thank him or we'll need a forum dictionary by the end of the week! :lol:

Joint cutting planes (jointers, rabbets, dados, tongue & groove, etc) should have straight edges.

That's one of those "spot the odd one out" things isn't it, Roger? Thought I wouldn't notice eh?

It is just a necessary chore.

That I can agree with

Right Mike, back in your cage. Everyone take a big deep breath and count to 25 - slowly. Okay, done?

Right, I know I'm the first to get overly enthusiastic in supporting a method I've found works for me, and I apologise for it if I get all run away with sometimes. S'only 'cos it seems to me that I'm onto a Good Thing and want others to share in this same Good Thing, but nevertheless, no excuse for getting dictatorial about it, if I do. Hopefully I usually manage to cope when someone doesn't share my joy in it. 9 times out of 10 anyway. 8 at the outside... Hopefully so can everyone else. So please play nice, chaps. [-X :wink:

Cheers, Alf

Who was actually gonna try the whole straight edge for jointing thing on the BUT, 'cept there was no jointer fence... #-o

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going to do my best Adam Cherubini impression here :
This thread is rediculous!

Ridiculous to you obviously. Maybe to others as well. Thank you for an attempt at invalidating both Paul's questioning and my and others' attempts at helping.

Cutting tool edges come in all kinds of shapes. Get used to that concept. Bench planes (or leveling planes if you prefer) should have cambered blades, period. No exceptions.

Really? Guess I've done it wrong since, well, my entire hand planing life. Thank you for that bit of absolutism. I must run out to the shop and change 20 or 30 blades to comply.

Molding planes have curvy edges. How about that? No need to shy away.

So? Aren't they suppose to? Oops, that's right. My bench planes have to as well.

If you are going to woodwork with handtools you will need to learn to sharpen all kinds of edges. Gouges, carving tools, auger bits, saws, et. al. It is just a necessary chore.

Guess that's obvious.

Folks, while we obviously have sharpening disagreements, the above is a bit pompous and assuming. Neither does it help someone new to all this--regardless of how questioning they are, or how they phrase the questions.

For many, they feel intimidated and seek to fully understanmd before acting or attempting something that seems wrong or strange. Others just try without reason. Neither accomplishes what they desire. It takes time. Trial. Perseverance. Sometimes, it takes a person what appears to some to be obstinance or being argumentitive. Some can phrase questions better than others.

Big freaking deal. Answer don't answer. But at least try to be constructive in your reply.

I'm not good around people and should not have been let out of my cage this morning. Guess I'll go back to work with my imperfectly shaped plane blades.

Mike
the (mainly) straight blader who doesn't know better.

Mike, Mike, calm down. :lol:
I had hoped the smiley at the beginning of the post would alert everyone that the rest of the post was facetious. I thought most here, including you since I see you on WoodCentral, would recognize my mimicry of Adam's agressive style.
Rest assured I am not criticizing your or anyone else's methods. My apologies it seemed that way.
The attempted point of my post is that no one should be intimidated by sharpening, it is merely a necessary part of woodworking and that camber is just one of many configurations a woodworker will encounter.