Sharpening conspiracy!

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Perfectly flat finish would be scraped and/or sanded. It's not possible with a plane alone.
Its not possible with a scraper or sander either.

The notion of flatness as being what looks flat to the human eye isn't a complete definition of flatness by any means, even though it might be a good practical definition since that's probably flat enough for many furniture making purposes (but not all). There is a geometric flatness that can't easily (or at all) be judged by eye alone. We use engineered straight edges with tiny tolerances for a reason. And those winding sticks you mention are, effectively, amplifiers enabling the eye to notice the not-flatness known as wind more easily.

A long soled plane is possibly the best tool for achieving woodworking flatness of the kind we want when making posh cabinets with only hand tools. A scraper can easily dig dips. Sanding even more so.

The matter could be subject to objective measurement rather than to a mere human eyeballing, then. A well-engineered straight edge, long enough to span a surface in any orientation, along with a set of feeler gauges, might well indicate something dipped and bumped with far more ability than a human eye. How much is that needed? That's another question.
 
The term "flat" may relate to the condition of a surface defined by:
  • granularity of the surface, and
  • the maximum dimension over which "flatness" is to be judged
For a plane blade the granularity may be related to the grit used to sharpen - this is a much larger dimension than that which could be defined by its pure atomic structure.

The dimension (width) over which "flatness" would be judged is typically ~60mm. Defined by a tolerance - perfectly "flat" would have zero tolerance over an absolutely straight edge. In practice a tolerance across the dimension would be expected.

It is a somewhat academic - in days gone by precision measuring equipment did not exist. Assessing the quality of a blade would have been by eye. Acceptable would have been that which the craftsman assessed produced acceptable results on the workpiece involved.

A greater level of precision is simply unnecessary!
 
The term "flat" may relate to the condition of a surface defined by:
  • granularity of the surface, and
  • the maximum dimension over which "flatness" is to be judged
For a plane blade the granularity may be related to the grit used to sharpen - this is a much larger dimension than that which could be defined by its pure atomic structure.

The dimension (width) over which "flatness" would be judged is typically ~60mm. Defined by a tolerance - perfectly "flat" would have zero tolerance over an absolutely straight edge. In practice a tolerance across the dimension would be expected.

It is a somewhat academic - in days gone by precision measuring equipment did not exist. Assessing the quality of a blade would have been by eye. Acceptable would have been that which the craftsman assessed produced acceptable results on the workpiece involved.

A greater level of precision is simply unnecessary!
Basically you do the best you can with the kit you've got.
It's not a problem in the ordinary way of craft work and unattainable definitions beyond your means are meaningless.
You can't rely on flatness from the tools alone, such as a long plane, you have to look at the thing as you work on it!
 
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In woodworking, nobody is getting out micrometers, but in toolmaking it’s another story. A nice fine plane shaving is a few thou thick, so our plane sole needs to be flat to that degree. And the tool we use to make the plane sole flat needs to be an order of magnitude flatter again.

I have a granite surface plate in my shed, flat to 0.00005”. That’s pretty flat. It was bought for refurbishing a surface grinder that is used for making plane irons (and ostensibly flattening the soles of planes, although I haven’t used it for that yet).

I was just curious about reference surfaces in , say , 1600.

IMG_4603.jpeg
 
In woodworking, nobody is getting out micrometers, but in toolmaking it’s another story. A nice fine plane shaving is a few thou thick, so our plane sole needs to be flat to that degree. And the tool we use to make the plane sole flat needs to be an order of magnitude flatter again.

I have a granite surface plate in my shed, flat to 0.00005”.
Woodwork tools aren't rocket science!
Ordinary "kitchen table" levels of flatness are good enough for most purposes.
In fact a typical MFC slab should be good enough for flattening woodwork kit. I'd use 80 grit wet n dry, thin paper-backed, wet with white spirit which holds it down very flat, and more poured on top to float off swarf and cut faster.
2 sheets for a long plane. Take them up when finished and store them between boards to keep them flat.
I'd guess similar levels of flatness would easily be achieved even in year 1600 but with different materials.
 
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MFC is engineered to a max tolerance of 2mm / metre.

Jacob, if you think woodworking tools aren’t precision , you’d be wrong. Unless a plane sole is flat across its length to max 2 thou, it won’t work correctly. Trust me, I’ve made enough of them.

Which is why the history of precision in toolmaking, pre Whitworth, is an interesting topic.
 
MFC is engineered to a max tolerance of 2mm / metre.
Sounds good. For flattening a plane sole it'd need to be on a solid base too of course. I have actually used a lot of planes and rescued a few neglected wrecks.
The main prob with a sole is likely to be concavity along the length. A little convexity is no problem - it's kitchen table science.
With a plane blade it's the seating on the frog - it needs to be tight at each end and nipped hard by the lever cap or wedge, via the cap iron.

Which is why the history of precision in toolmaking, pre Whitworth, is an interesting topic.
Normal methods I expect. Flatten grindstones by grinding two or three together for instance.
n.b. there's lots of interesting stuff on line https://www.google.com/search?q=how...E3OTkyajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I had to google "an iterative process" !
 
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I find the subject of flatness - and precision in general - to be fascinating. Another thread is needed!
Me too, I spent large portions of my spare time scraping a surface grinder flat, which was an interesting but laborious process.

The point really was that it’s interesting to know how flatness was achieved before the days of modern precision, because it it required to achieve sharpness.
 
..... it’s interesting to know how flatness was achieved before the days of modern precision, because it it required to achieve sharpness.
What makes you think that? You can have a sharp edge on a piece of flint!
I sharpen with a rounded bevel on most things, two rounded bevels on a knife because it's easiest, not for any other reason. Known as an "apple seed" bevel by knife enthusiasts, in fact it's something they can aimlessly gibber on about for pages and pages! https://www.americanbladesmith.org/...g-and-sharpening/apple-seed-edge-vs-standard/
 
12c27 stainless
Are opinels 12C27? I couldn't find anywhere that mentions the grade on their site. It just talks about Stainless and carbon steels in general. Not disputing the claim, just interested. My Morakniv is the same it just says its stainless but I can't see what grade, but it is very sharp.

My Boker penknife has 12C27 and it's razor sharp. Granted 12C27 is a mid range steel from what I've read, so can't expect too much, but more than your bog standard penknife jobbie.

I have wondered about making my own handle for an opinel as they are easy to diy.
 
Are opinels 12C27? I couldn't find anywhere that mentions the grade on their site. It just talks about Stainless and carbon steels in general. Not disputing the claim, just interested. My Morakniv is the same it just says its stainless but I can't see what grade, but it is very sharp.

My Boker penknife has 12C27 and it's razor sharp. Granted 12C27 is a mid range steel from what I've read, so can't expect too much, but more than your bog standard penknife jobbie.

I have wondered about making my own handle for an opinel as they are easy to diy.
On the subject of the Opinel - there are no flat surfaces on them anywhere but they sharpen very easily and very sharp, with a steel
 
Are opinels 12C27? I couldn't find anywhere that mentions the grade on their site. It just talks about Stainless and carbon steels in general. Not disputing the claim, just interested. My Morakniv is the same it just says its stainless but I can't see what grade, but it is very sharp.

My Boker penknife has 12C27 and it's razor sharp. Granted 12C27 is a mid range steel from what I've read, so can't expect too much, but more than your bog standard penknife jobbie.

I have wondered about making my own handle for an opinel as they are easy to diy.
As I understand it, there are different geometries used to make knife (and axe) edges, depending on their intended use. For carving purposes, a scandi edge (two flat bevels) is preferred over a convex-bevel edge.

The convex bevel edge is stronger and good for knives that are used for bushcraft purposes - splitting and hacking-mightily at stuff, perhaps involving hitting the back of the knife blade with a branch-mallet to drive the edge into something. The scandi grind gives an edge that's a bit more "delicate" but the flat bevel makes it easier to carve with when various convex and concave surfaces are being formed, as with spoons and similar, with very fine and controlled cuts.

Some use a concave bevel for carving knives but that can make the already very thin arris of a carving knife even more delicate. Some commercially made carving knives - Beavercraft is one - do come with concave bevels but as these are honed over use and time the very small concavity becomes flattened into a scandi.

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No doubt there are knife users who can perform any operation with any kind of steel, edge geometry and sharpness. No doubt one could carve a spoon with a flint knife or even grind one into shape with a lump of sandstone, after enough practice and effort. But different steels, configurations and degrees of sharpness can improve the making process, in terms of ease, type/precision of cuts possible, time/work before the edge degrades and so forth. All those nuances are worth knowing and practicing.

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The various knifey folk out in webland generally promote carbon steel knives as better than stainless steel knives if sharpness is the prime requirement. Stainless is better for bushcraft uses basically because those uses don't need such a high degree of sharpness and stainless doesn't rust like carbon steels in damp environments. Most mass-makers of knives do both.

Morakniv do one that has a layered-blade, with a very hard central carbon steel layer to take the very sharp & resilient edge, clasped by two softer layers to keep the harder layer from fracturing or breaking.

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I've used various carving knives for making spoons, bowl and so forth from green wood over the past 14 months. I've made over 100 items so far, from various kinds of green wood, using various knives. My own experience is that some knife steels and edge/bevel configurations make a significant and easily noticeable difference to the ability of the knife to make easy/clean cuts and to stay sharp or go back to sharpness easily. The differences are real and do make a difference to the quality of one's experience when carving with them. It soon becomes a preference to avoid poorly made penknives of inadequate steels and edge profile in favour of better designed and made items oriented at a specific kind of use.
 
As I understand it, there are different geometries used to make knife (and axe) edges, depending on their intended use. For carving purposes, a scandi edge (two flat bevels) is preferred over a convex-bevel edge.

The convex bevel edge is stronger and good for knives that are used for bushcraft purposes - splitting and hacking-mightily at stuff, perhaps involving hitting the back of the knife blade with a branch-mallet to drive the edge into something. The scandi grind gives an edge that's a bit more "delicate" but the flat bevel makes it easier to carve with when various convex and concave surfaces are being formed, as with spoons and similar, with very fine and controlled cuts.

Some use a concave bevel for carving knives but that can make the already very thin arris of a carving knife even more delicate. Some commercially made carving knives - Beavercraft is one - do come with concave bevels but as these are honed over use and time the very small concavity becomes flattened into a scandi.

***********
No doubt there are knife users who can perform any operation with any kind of steel, edge geometry and sharpness. No doubt one could carve a spoon with a flint knife or even grind one into shape with a lump of sandstone, after enough practice and effort. But different steels, configurations and degrees of sharpness can improve the making process, in terms of ease, type/precision of cuts possible, time/work before the edge degrades and so forth. All those nuances are worth knowing and practicing.

*************
The various knifey folk out in webland generally promote carbon steel knives as better than stainless steel knives if sharpness is the prime requirement. Stainless is better for bushcraft uses basically because those uses don't need such a high degree of sharpness and stainless doesn't rust like carbon steels in damp environments. Most mass-makers of knives do both.

Morakniv do one that has a layered-blade, with a very hard central carbon steel layer to take the very sharp & resilient edge, clasped by two softer layers to keep the harder layer from fracturing or breaking.

*************
I've used various carving knives for making spoons, bowl and so forth from green wood over the past 14 months. I've made over 100 items so far, from various kinds of green wood, using various knives. My own experience is that some knife steels and edge/bevel configurations make a significant and easily noticeable difference to the ability of the knife to make easy/clean cuts and to stay sharp or go back to sharpness easily. The differences are real and do make a difference to the quality of one's experience when carving with them. It soon becomes a preference to avoid poorly made penknives of inadequate steels and edge profile in favour of better designed and made items oriented at a specific kind of use.
You are talking the talk - I see that knife sharpening madness is getting to you!
Why on earth would a so called "Scandi"edge produce a better result than any other "configuration" - given the same angle at the sharp end. It makes no sense at all. If there is any difference it can only be in the differing technique used to produce the angle, one perhaps being more effective than the other.
Why would a convex edge be stronger - for the same edge angle the convex edge takes away more metal and must be weaker?
Obviously poorly made or poorly designed knives are less good - by definition.
What about a well made and well designed knife with "poorer" steel? Wouldn't that just mean easier sharpening but faster blunting?
I can see the point of a laminated knife with hard centre and softer outer. This is common with older chisels and plane blades; hard face attached to soft back and slightly easier to sharpen.
 
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Opinels are so named because you haven't an 'ope in 'ell of their holding an edge. They're soft so farmers and fishermen can sharpen them on anything to haned - the edge of a pavement, a rusty anchor ...
All very well - but will they respond to a cathedral step!? :)

Do Opinel not make knives of different steels? I have read reviews of one model on various carving websites that seem to find no serious fault with them.
 
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