Sharpening conspiracy!

[paulrbarnard]

A lot of dilettantes (not you) buy these knives and haven't a clue.

I do have one of those at home and it is a constant bone of contention…

 

[steve355]

Wicked , a 6 page sharpening thread. I see things haven’t changed much around here then!

 

[Eshmiel]

Wicked , a 6 page sharpening thread. I see things haven’t changed much around here then!

One hopes that you've read, absorbed, understood and agreed with every word, despite the many contentions, contradictions and opposing methods, especially Jacob's. No one can call their sen a woodworker unless they're an avid member of a Sharpening Church!

I like them best as have had a sharpening epiphany and acquired the fervour of the converted. Best rants and sermons are to be had from such folk - although they're sometimes looking for heretics to burn the ears off. I'm quite catholic about it, having tried every gubbins and method going and ranted about each one in their turn, one way then another (later on, after joining another church).

Wot is your own procedure?

 

[steve355]

One hopes that you've read, absorbed, understood and agreed with every word, despite the many contentions, contradictions and opposing methods, especially Jacob's. No one can call their sen a woodworker unless they're an avid member of a Sharpening Church!

I like them best as have had a sharpening epiphany and acquired the fervour of the converted. Best rants and sermons are to be had from such folk - although they're sometimes looking for heretics to burn the ears off. I'm quite catholic about it, having tried every gubbins and method going and ranted about each one in their turn, one way then another (later on, after joining another church).

Wot is your own procedure?

Luckily for me I am generally persuaded of the “Jacobean” or “Jacobite” approach, having wasted money on ridiculous gizmos before realising that edges have been sharpened since time immemorial by rubbing metal on stones, and the most exquisite woodworking ever done back then using these very simple techniques, plus understanding why.

Imagine if I had a Veritas Mk2 honing guide!

 

[Eshmiel]

Luckily for me I am generally persuaded of the “Jacobean” or “Jacobite” approach, having wasted money on ridiculous gizmos before realising that edges have been sharpened since time immemorial by rubbing metal on stones, and the most exquisite woodworking ever done back then using these very simple techniques, plus understanding why.

Imagine if I had a Veritas Mk2 honing guide!

There may be an old cathedral step lump somewhere at the back of the shed, from a previous sharpening fashionable-fad period in the history of my sharpening-methods experiences. I would have sent it to Jacob but he's gone modern with a Norton stone, probably being excommunicated by The True Sharpening Church elders as a result. And shunned.

As I recall, a worn stone step - the older and more worn the better - is regarded as an essential part of the sharpening rite of passage wherein one must resolve the apparently irresolvable matter of getting a straight chisel edge from a footworn concavity of variable curve and grit. I could never achieve the necessary mental state, myself, so fell into purgatory with Veritas jiggery, including its various add-on pokeries.

I'm still waiting for Jacob to do his sharpening video, preferably whilst dressed in an exciting fashion. Mind, I'd want to see the microscopic images to back up his claims, as well as at least ten photos showing the sequence from rough plank to a French-polished finish rivalling anything in The Louvre, made entirely with a Jacob-sharpened plane blade and nowt else. If he convinces me, I will also buy two of his T-shirts!

 

[MikeJhn]

T-shirts now there is an issue, why do most US guys roll up the sleeves of a short sleeved T-shirt?

 

[Blackswanwood]

There may be an old cathedral step lump somewhere at the back of the shed, from a previous sharpening fashionable-fad period in the history of my sharpening-methods experiences. I would have sent it to Jacob but he's gone modern with a Norton stone, probably being excommunicated by The True Sharpening Church elders as a result. And shunned.

As I recall, a worn stone step - the older and more worn the better - is regarded as an essential part of the sharpening rite of passage wherein one must resolve the apparently irresolvable matter of getting a straight chisel edge from a footworn concavity of variable curve and grit. I could never achieve the necessary mental state, myself, so fell into purgatory with Veritas jiggery, including its various add-on pokeries.

I'm still waiting for Jacob to do his sharpening video, preferably whilst dressed in an exciting fashion. Mind, I'd want to see the microscopic images to back up his claims, as well as at least ten photos showing the sequence from rough plank to a French-polished finish rivalling anything in The Louvre, made entirely with a Jacob-sharpened plane blade and nowt else. If he convinces me, I will also buy two of his T-shirts!

A feature of your posts seems to be to just goad Jacob. Not sure why but imo it’s a bit unedifying.

 

[John Brown]

T-shirts now there is an issue, why do most US guys roll up the sleeves of a short sleeved T-shirt?

Use to be to hold a pack of cigarettes. No idea what the point is nowadays.

 

[Jacob]

A feature of your posts seems to be to just goad Jacob. Not sure why but imo it’s a bit unedifying.

Maybe https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/oscar_wilde_128481 Anyway more people seem to be cottoning on to normal sharpening, and it never went away!

 

[Jacob]

...getting a straight chisel edge from a footworn concavity of variable curve and grit....

You obviously haven't been listening. That might do for gouges or cambered blades but for straight edges must be from flattish to convex

 

[Eshmiel]

A feature of your posts seems to be to just goad Jacob. Not sure why but imo it’s a bit unedifying.

You seem rather more sensitive to my exchanges with Jacob than Jacob himself. Cannot you read the benign intent of these exchanges? I quite admire Jacob as he's persistent and manages to keep quite calm despite being had-at by posts far more aggressive than mine, even from a moderator!

But just to make it clear - I like Jacob and recognise his worth here. My posts to him often contain a tease of sark but I feel that Jacob recognises that there is no ill-will in any of them. And Jacob is more than capable of dealing with the likes of me.

 

[Eshmiel]

You obviously haven't been listening. That might do for gouges or cambered blades but for straight edges must be from flattish to convex

Deafness, both actual and selective, has been an Eshmiel feature for years and years.

I do listen .... even understand ..... and occasionally agree! But you will post them no-alternative opinions that invite a tease. You didn't really think I was accusing you of having a bit of cathedral step now, did you.

Look at this way - I keep looking at them Norton stones and all because of you.

 

[steve355]

I do think the question of flatness is interesting historically speaking. A blade will only produce a perfect surface if the “back” (front) of the blade is flat.

Getting a flat surface is easier said than done.
Of course, liquids easily produce flat surfaces but aren’t much good at cutting metal. Some types of stones have strata that can be very flat.

I suppose molten metal can be used to create a flat surface that an abrasive can be used with.

Then of course there’s Joseph Whitworth’s method of rubbing 3 surfaces together to create an engineered flat surface to incredible tolerances.

It would be interesting to know what method was used to create flat surfaces for flattening the back of planes irons in, say the 1600s.

 

[Jacob]

I do think the question of flatness is interesting historically speaking. A blade will only produce a perfect surface if the “back” (front) of the blade is flat. Getting a flat surface is easier said than done.

Do you mean the "face"? Bevel on back, flat on face, though usage varies.
They've been flattening metal since the Bronze Age, and stone before that!
A plane just needs to flattish on the face behind the bevel, especially if it's a double iron i.e. with cap iron a close fit to the surface. Surely the usual methods apply - grindstones of one sort or another, static or a wheel?

 

[Eshmiel]

Do you mean the "face"? Bevel on back, flat on face, though usage varies.
They've been flattening metal since the Bronze Age, and stone before that!
A plane just needs to flattish on the face behind the bevel, especially if it's a double iron i.e. with cap iron a close fit to the surface. Surely the usual methods apply - grindstones of one sort or another, static or a wheel?

"Flattish"? How much is not flat enough (in a plane blade meant to work with a flat sole)?

It would be interesting to know how ye olde woodworkers made a straight edge on their flat soled plane blades; and how they got the soles flat. There seems very little historical evidence of the methods used long ago - unless you know of some? I suppose a lot of older furniture does exhibit surfaces that aren't the sort of dead-flat ones seemingly required today. Perhaps true flatness is something modern?

 

[steve355]

"Flattish"? How much is not flat enough (in a plane blade meant to work with a flat sole)?

It would be interesting to know how ye olde woodworkers made a straight edge on their flat soled plane blades; and how they got the soles flat. There seems very little historical evidence of the methods used long ago - unless you know of some? I suppose a lot of older furniture does exhibit surfaces that aren't the sort of dead-flat ones seemingly required today. Perhaps true flatness is something modern?

Great example of flatness in the olden days

Flatness in the modern sense is mostly attributed to Joseph Whitworth, who invented the micrometre and his flatness mechanism (can’t remember what it’s called), plus also of course the Whitworth rifle. A very underappreciated Briton, possibly one of the most important inventors in history.

But flatness to a tolerance of a few thousands of an inch must have been possible many hundreds (if not thousands) of years ago. Both for flattening plane blades and flattening plane soles.

If the back of the plane iron is not flat, trying to sharpen it will produce a curved edge, which is very unhelpful when one is trying to produce a perfectly finished cabinet top or whatever.

 

[Jacob]

"Flattish"? How much is not flat enough (in a plane blade meant to work with a flat sole)?

It would be interesting to know how ye olde woodworkers made a straight edge on their flat soled plane blades;

Basically by looking at the edge produced and seeing if it was flat. It's an old trick known as "eyeballing". Plenty of other methods of course. String lines for long lengths, made up straight edges for short. And so on. Then there's winding sticks for twist, etc etc

and how they got the soles flat.

Similarly.

There seems very little historical evidence of the methods used long ago - unless you know of some?

Basically the trick of looking at things. Not difficult. You can see I presume?

I suppose a lot of older furniture does exhibit surfaces that aren't the sort of dead-flat ones seemingly required today. Perhaps true flatness is something modern?

There's no such thing as absolute flatness. It's a case of "flat enough", or not, as the case may be.
Look up Whitworth's three plates if you are into engineering flatness. He's supposed to have invented the idea but it's so obvious that it must have been in use long before precision engineering was invented

 

[Jacob]

Great example of flatness in the olden days

Flatness in the modern sense is mostly attributed to Joseph Whitworth, who invented the micrometre and his flatness mechanism (can’t remember what it’s called), plus also of course the Whitworth rifle. A very underappreciated Briton, possibly one of the most important inventors in history.

But flatness to a tolerance of a few thousands of an inch must have been possible many hundreds (if not thousands) of years ago. Both for flattening plane blades and flattening plane soles.

If the back of the plane iron is not flat, trying to sharpen it will produce a curved edge, which is very unhelpful when one is trying to produce a perfectly finished cabinet top or whatever.

Perfectly flat finish would be scraped and/or sanded. It's not possible with a plane alone.

 

[steve355]

Perfectly flat finish would be scraped and/or sanded. It's not possible with a plane alone.

You are confusing smooth with flat

 

[Jacob]

You are confusing smooth with flat

If you insist! If you mean "flat except for plane marks yet to be smoothed away", you judge flatness by looking at it.