Sharpening chisels - the old way?

[dchenard]

Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling - Chesse on Toast with L&P is a classic. Honestly, I may have to go elsewhere to find suitably cultured minds.. [-( :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Not wanting to start a war here, but I "toured" the UK in '98, starting in Cambridge (where I was presenting at a conference), then stopping in Snettisham, South Shields, West Woodburn, Edimburgh, Inverness, Fort William, Glasgow, Carlisle, Bath, and back to London (camping most of the time, that explains some of the smaller locales). Well, the only meal that was memorable in a good way was the haggis I had in Glasgow... :-k

DC

Who uses L&P in some recipies

 

[Alf]

Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling

...the only meal that was memorable in a good way was the haggis I had in Glasgow...

My case, m'lud, rests... :wink: :lol: (Was it deep-fried...?)

 

[garywayne]

Alf wrote:-

(Was it deep-fried...?)

I thought that was Mars bars, Battered of coarse.

 

[Alf]

I think practically anything can be deep-fried...

 

[dchenard]

Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling

...the only meal that was memorable in a good way was the haggis I had in Glasgow...

My case, m'lud, rests... :wink: :lol: (Was it deep-fried...?)

Nope, traditional way with neeps and tatties (the turnips were the best I've ever eaten, BTW).

Now, deep-frying a Mars bar, that's utterly gross

DC

How about some poutine now?

 

[Anonymous]

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[dchenard]

Is it the poteen you have in mind? http://www.irish-poteen.com/

God no! [-X

The poutine I'm talking about is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine

It's quite good tasting when well made, but the fat...

Your pizza was indeed gross... :mrgreen:

DC

 

[engineer one]

keerist, all those fat canadians, still at least they are french ones who ought to know better :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[David C]

I think this is a classic case of old school, trade protectionism.
The Japanese apprentice is made to sharpen (no grinding) by hand for one year. This is the time they assign for learning these skills.

Those who can freehand are welcome to it.

Beginners need sharp edges from day one and are well advised to use a simple guide.

The problems of sharpening are much more to do with the flat back preparation and correct polishing away of wire edges.

Bevel side is a doddle in comparison.

David C

 

[engineer one]

whilst i appreciate that you are happy with your method jacob, it does as david says smack a little of the joiner arguing with a cabinet maker.

i believe as do most engineers, or those who have spent some time investigating sharp edges that the intersection has to be flat, however the whole advantage of the secondary bevel method was to reduce the amount of time taken when honing on a regular basis.
if this system works for you then good, but it will not close off the argument, since it ignores the basic fact which is until you have been shown what a decent sharpening edge is you will not understand how to achieve it.

freehand sharpening has become a badge of honour to many and will i am sure send a lot of people off down a wrong slope again as they despair of getting the same edges as you. you have admitted to taking 40 years to get to this stage. using equipment that you cast clouts at i have managed in less than a couple of years to produce a number of sharp edges which are abused by others and returned broken and shattered after two or three months. now all those "customers" of mine were taught to sharpen freehand, but prefer the stability and accuracy of my jigged approach.

so i guess whilst an interesting discussion, and good luck to those who
follow, it is wrong to suggest to beginners that they start out without a
guide and no reference to how sharp something should be. :twisted:

if you can freehand sharpen, well good luck to you, but obviouslyit is not the only method, and like all things it takes a skill that maybe it takes 40 years to develop. a jig at least gives you a starting point from which once confidence in your ability to produce sharp edges grows you can branch off into practising freehand with the knowledge of what you need to produce, then good luck to you too.

paul :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

I really don't think it matters which method you use, as long as it works for you. Once you do find the method that works for you, it's fabulous because you suddenly find that you stop worrying about it

Cheers

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Reading some of the posts here re first days in apprenticships made me recall my own.
When I started it was assumed I could sharpen bench plane blades and chisels.
I was expected to be able to make most of the common joints, tenons and dovetails etc.
This was because of the exams I took before leaving Technical school (age 15),a pass in woodwork meant I was able to carry out the above mentioned to a specific standard.
Employers looked at that Certificate when one applied for an apprenticship.

Btw the first chore I got was when one cabinetmaker asked me to help him plane some "Rough Stuff".
I followed him to his workplace and he promptly handed me the sweeping brush to cleanup his work area!

Re sharpening jigs etc, I think there are a lot of amateur woodworkers who need to know the edges they sharpen are correct.
Otherwise they may never know what is at fault if their work is not turning out as they wish.
In the absence of a someone to teach them the next best thing is a guide.
In this instance the price of a jig would be money well spent.
Later on when they are more experienced they can ditch them if they wish or sell them on ebay
We have a saying around here "you cant put an old head on young shoulders" let young in this instance stand for inexperienced.

Jacob, if it has taken you that long to figure out your method WITH your experience, what hope has a lesser mortal with hardly any experience?

Another adage springs to mind(tongue in cheek) " you cant teach an old dog new tricks"

Keep up the good work!

 

[Colin C]

Why the addiction in the first place? I blame the honing jig, with which bevels are unavoidable. Honing jig isn't the answer to the problem - it's the cause.
Its a bit like smoking; an innocent beginner gets offered a honing jig at a vulnerable age and becomes addicted. It doesn't do him any good and when he finally gives it up he wonders why he ever bothered in the first place. Should have a health warning on the packet. And it's a slippery slope leading to diamond blocks and even more unnecessary expense.

cheers
Jacob

Hi Jacob,

Your last bit is not right by me as I use to do all my sharpening by hand but could never get consistent results, so on reading Jim Kingshott 's book on sharpening ( he used a modified elipse jig with a simple jig for setting the angle ).
I thought I would give it a try and for me, I get very good consistent edges all the time. So for me it has made things a lot quicker as I now work for myself.
By the way have you had a look a how much you can get good diamond stone for as my 6"x2" was only £22 and I have had it for about 10 years ( well I have two, one for site and dont need oil )

Colin

 

[Anonymous]

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[Frank D.]

Jacob,
I'm happy for you that sharpening has become easier all of a sudden, but I don't think the rounded bevel will be an advantage for more than a few sharpenings. As you have said it doesn't matter whether the intersection that forms the edge is rounded or flat as long as the angle you want is at the edge (as long as the angle at the edge is a 30° tangent). But eventually your polishing will creep up over 30° if you want to continue polishing it, and you wil start to have clearance problems. Then your rounded bevel will be harder or at least more work to take off by hand. It's the same with carving gouges...once the bevel becomes too rounded it's back to the grinder or the coarse stones (so back to a flat bevel).

 

[Anonymous]

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[MikeW]

Well, I was feeling rather smart for only posting one real response in this thread--my, how it's grown!

Me thinks Jacob has nearly been chastised for his communicating his method. I don't take his enthuisism for the method as trying to convert the world, rather a "hey, look, this works and is faster for me" sort of thing.

As a matter of perspective from my point of view, Jacob is pretty much describing how I sharpen my mortise chisels, at least in effect. I drag the mortise chisel towrds me on the stone starting off by holding it at the tip angle I desire. Then when pulling it back I slowly lower the handle.

There is a distinct small bevel at the tip [larger than the lamination. They are OBM chisels], a rounded transition and a gentle curve from there up to the face. Other than at the tip, the remainder while curved is at a lower angle.

This shape is pretty much maintained and I rarely need to grind the bevel. This is not much different than grinding my bench chisels at a lower angle and using a steeper secondary. I was just out in the shop doing some actual woodwork and needed to sharpen on of my OBMs and this thread came to mind.

Just as an experiment, I grabbed an old Butcher firmer and sharpened it in this manner. The important intersection still had a distinct bevel [very small] while the remainder of the "bevel" was rounded. I think this is because while I pulled the chisel towards myself, the tip's bevel angle was maintained for about half the distance on the stone before lowering the handle.

As long as the curved, upper part has enough metal removed while sharpening, I can see how this method would forego the need to regrind a lower angle if one uses what is in effect a secondary bevel angle anyway. And, of course, hand sharpens.

I won't stick with this method for other than my OBMs because I prefer to slide the chisel/plane blade back and forth sideways for all but the smallest of chisels--it's what I am comfortable with. But it was worth a try for all of the couple minutes it took.

Take care, Mike
back to being smart and hiding...

 

[David C]

I think Mike has put his finger on an important point.

The language used is provocative to say the least.

Innocent, addicted, vulnerable, no use, unnecessary expense.

David C