Sharpening #78 spur?

[gidon]

Hello hand tool crowd. I picked this Stanley no. 78 up for a song (I thought anyway until I checked out Ebay prices when I got home!). It's in good condition - no bits missings as far as I can tell. Out of interest can anyone date it?
It says to sharpen the spur (for cross cutting) - use a pair of pliers to hold it. Well I've tried a few methods (best I've found is using a small diamond credit card on it) - but how do you sharpen it? Also what profile do you give it. It's curved at the minute - would it be better to sharpen it to a point or straight edge. Or keep it curved?
It's a great tool - best ~£13 (not exactly sure - picked up a Jorgensen clamp with it for £17 total ) I've spent for sometime. The edge guide does have some movement however hard you tighten the thumb screw - but not sure yet whether that effects the cut ... Any other tips?
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Gidon,

Jake Darvall is your expert on all this sort of thing and has done lots of modifications to his planes. Hopefully he'll be along. The problem with the #78 is that it has one fence rod so you can get some flexing of the fence (the Record #778 has two rods so doesn't have this problem). However, as long as you are aware of this it might not raise too many difficulties and plenty of people use them successfully.

Most people who have used that type of spur seem agreed that it is a poor design. Lie Nielsen have recently gone for a wheel type on some of their planes which seems much better. And Jake designed a different shape one for one of his planes and made it flare out a bit if I remember correctly - if he doesn't come along I'll see if I can find it. Really they are a bit too long and I reckon you need to file them down to make them shorter. In use you have to ensure that they are lined up with the blade - not always easy as you normally adjust the blade so it is protruding a whisker. I tend not to bother with mine and use a knife cut when working against the grain.

Despite all that, I reckon it was a good buy and you'll enjoy using it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

It says to sharpen the spur (for cross cutting) - use a pair of pliers to hold it. Well I've tried a few methods (best I've found is using a small diamond credit card on it) - but how do you sharpen it? Also what profile do you give it. It's curved at the minute - would it be better to sharpen it to a point or straight edge. Or keep it curved?

Just a small curve is fine, same as the blade in a cutting gauge.

Be careful not to grind it away!

Here's a small gadget that I find helpful (and easy to make)

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/shop_ ... ker_holder

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi again Gidon,

I found that thread started by Jake Darvall where he designed his own spur or nicker. This was for a Record #043 but the principle is the same and it's one of the best things I've ever read about spurs and why they do and don't work http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=33429

Hope it helps.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[gidon]

Thanks Paul. Yes that's the problem - it extends too far - and not being very sharp at the minute is makign a complete mess! That thread is a good one - thank you - will take a better look later today ...
Yes I think in use the edge guide works fine.
Bugbear - thanks - very neat gadget - may well give that a go!
Wish I had some more time to play with it .
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Lord Nibbo]

It says to sharpen the spur (for cross cutting) - use a pair of pliers to hold it. Well I've tried a few methods (best I've found is using a small diamond credit card on it) - but how do you sharpen it?
Cheers
Gidon

I dont ever touch the curved/shaped side, I just take it off the plane and put it flat face down on a diamond card and using one finger go round in circles with it.

 

[gidon]

LN - thanks - I tried that first off though - but the curved front is too pronounced on mine .
Cheers
Gidon

 

[bugbear]

I dont ever touch the curved/shaped side, I just take it off the plane and put it flat face down on a diamond card and using one finger go round in circles with it.

But the cutting edge is only placed in alignment with the plane body due to the blade thickness - which you're slowly reducing???

BugBear (who sharpens the bevel)

 

[Anonymous]

I do what Paul does actually now days ....ie don't use the spur.

I'll throw down some of my observations. Try and make sense.

I don't think the 78's spurs are good design. Same looking spur in the stanley 45 as well..

See, the ideal spur I believe should cut at a depth slightly deeper than the main blade thats following is cutting at. Yet, straight from the box, the 78's spurs are too long, right ? (just won't work on hard wood, and kinda messy on soft) ....For them to be at the right depth, you have to grind them down to just the right height.....well, its difficult enough as it is to sharpen them at all, let alone to the ideal height.

And it'll only be at that height once in its life. A couple sharpenings latter it'll slice too shallow. You'll find it very fiddly I believe.

What you really need is a depth adjustable nicker, like you find in the 55. The best ones have long shanks on them so you've got something to grab onto when your sharpening.

So, I wouldn't worry about the spur (ever ) But, you may have better luck with it.

But, it doesn't mean the plane won't perform with the grain. I don't like how its only got one rod for the fence like Paul said, but it'll still work well enough for you I'd say.

I had some fun scribbling all over your picture (excuse)

Now, if you want to include the spur into that already fiddly mix, not only do you have to sharpen it to just the right height (like described before) but you'll have to ensure it aligns up well with the main blades corner.....However the spur doesn't seem to stick out far enough to begin with either!!! .... you can shim the spur with little pieces of paper to bring them out.....but its all getting too hard to bother with IMO.

Another problem to be aware of. The depth stop has a tendency to cause the plane to rock over and overcut when it rubs the timber. The greater the width of the rebate your cutting, the more likely it'll occur. So have to be careful. I know of people who actually remove the depth stop permanently for that reason alone, and just plane to scribed lines.

Another problem to check.....that the blade beds well. I've noticed some 78 types like the birminghams I have don't bed well.....see daylight between the blade and bed.....have to file the bed...sounds like your not having that problem though.

Thats all I can think of mate. Goodluck with it.

 

[Alf]

What you really need is a depth adjustable nicker, like you find in the 55.

Not all #55s - later ones have the three-armed variety. That's why I've pretty much given up making any comment on good or bad points about combination planes - it may turn out it's only relevant to certain examples of them. F'rinstance someone was mentioning the Record #405 fence didn't have thumb screws like the Stanley, but the older ones did.

Cheers, Alf

 

[gidon]

Many thanks Jake! Very helpful reply. I may give it another try this weekend but it does sound all a bit too much hassle! I think I may just stick to marking the line with my marking gauge as I'd normally do.
Thanks again,
Gidon

 

[Paul Chapman]

Very helpful reply, Jake - thanks for taking the trouble to do that :wink: It's always disappointed me that over the years so many manufacturers have perpetuated poor designs (like those spurs and single rods for fences). Makes you wonder if the people who designed them ever actually used them :? Then newcomers to woodwork try them and end up convinced that they must be doing something wrong when it's the design of the tool that is wrong.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

IIRC the (plastic) Record #050c has really good, large adjustable nickers, although IIRC (again) they're further from the blade (well ahead) than is ideal.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

IIRC the (plastic) Record #050c has really good, large adjustable nickers, although IIRC (again) they're further from the blade (well ahead) than is ideal.

I think you're right, BugBear. If you look at the picture of the Record #050c on Jarviser's website http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/tools4a.html they look as if they are fitted at the front end of the main body and sliding section and are adjustable for depth. But, as you say, probably a bit too far away from the cutter.

Cheers :wink:

Paul