Sharpening: 1000 vs 16000 grit.

[Trafalgar]

The end result of the ruler trick, additional polishing and refinement right at the cutting edge on the flat side, is the natural outcome of stropping on flexible media like leather, even some 'hard' rubbers give enough to produced the same effect. No lift is needed on one's finest stone. If one does feel a little lift is necessary then do it on a firm strop charged with a very fine powder. A few passes is plenty. There is no need to produce a bevel on the flat side at one's fine stone. The desired effect is achieved well before that much metal is abraded and this includes even the finest of back-bevels.

Honing past the so-called 'wear bevel' (fancy name for dull-ness) should be done only from the beveled side of the iron.

Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.

 

[Jacob]

Rob Cosman is doing it freehand, and a good deal faster than Paul Sellers.

Though there is nothing wrong with Sellers or even Jacob's method. Its just a shame he can't stop being rude about other methods.

David

It's the cost, with very marginal benefits.
I posted up a rough estimate of my lifetimes costs earlier. Actually most of that (£300ish plus Sorby Proedge) was incurred in the last few years. I've been bitten by the crazy sharpening bug without hardly realising it!!
Prior to that I managed with one new and two or three second hand oil stones. Total cost at today's prices about £40. Actual cost about £5.

 

[lurcher]

bench grinder 6" cotton mop and jewlers rouge will give you the best edge you could ever want people spend more time and money on sharppening pap instead of doing some woodwork it makes me smile when i read all this 1000 gt is fine enough for 80% of work .
and how come they can never invent some file that gives you a sharp saw tooth like no other
are we going to invent 1please make my job alot more easy

 

[Jacob]

bench grinder 6" cotton mop and jewlers rouge will give you the best edge you could ever want people spend more time and money on sharppening pap instead of doing some woodwork it makes me smile when i read all this 1000 gt is fine enough for 80% of work .
and how come they can never invent some file that gives you a sharp saw tooth like no other
are we going to invent 1please make my job alot more easy

Or ply disc on a lathe, with autosol. Slow speed - brilliantly sharp, and gouges done on the rounded edge. Can't be bettered! Costs FA if you have a lathe or anything with a faceplate.

 

[Corneel]

Costs, that's a good one. How much did I invest in the last 8 years or so in sharpening stuff? If I didn't forget anything, and I don;t remember all prices exactly.

Second hand Cruessen grinder, 25 euro.
Norton 3X wheel, 30 euro
Diamond dresser, 10 euro
So, for grinding something like 65 euro.

Waterstones:
400 grit Bester, 50 euro
1000 grit Sigma, 30 euro
4000 grit Bester, 55 euro
8000 grit Naniwa, 65 euro

That's 200 euro.

Then the oilstones.
Washita 2nd hand 40 euro
Arkansas 2nd hand 80 euro
Leather for free.
Makes 120 euro

Diamond plates.
DMT coarse/xcoarse 100 euro

Silicon grit, 5 euro.

All together, 65 + 200 + 120 + 100 + 5 = about 500 euro, makes 390 pounds.

 

[lurcher]

what are you chasing you should open a shop with all that lot man .
3 diamond plates
1 wooden block with leather on it as a strop
you need a shed to keep all that in mate

 

[MIGNAL]

I lied.

8,000G King Waterstone.
Hand crank + guide + Red replacement wheel.
Double sided diamond stone. - cheap.
Green stropping paste.

Around 200 pound. I have a medium grit waterstone, 3 Oil stones and a fine Arkansas. Only 2 of the Oil stones and the arkansas were bought by myself but more than 25 years ago, so I've not included the cost of those. The others I'm storing for a friend.

 

[Jacob]

Diamond plates? Luxury!! When ar worra lad we ad nowt but t'oilstone (if we wor lucky!). Woodwok wer no woss fer it neither. Tell that t't'youth of terday!
Actually quite true.

 

[iNewbie]

Rob Cosman is doing it freehand, and a good deal faster than Paul Sellers.

Though there is nothing wrong with Sellers or even Jacob's method. Its just a shame he can't stop being rude about other methods.

David

It's the cost, with very marginal benefits.
I posted up a rough estimate of my lifetimes costs earlier. Actually most of that (£300ish plus Sorby Proedge) was incurred in the last few years. I've been bitten by the crazy sharpening bug without hardly realising it!!
Prior to that I managed with one new and two or three second hand oil stones. Total cost at today's prices about £40. Actual cost about £5.

Nobody needed a Sorby PE in the old days - if you dont know how to do it.... :mrgreen:

 

[G S Haydon]

t'oilstones! bye 'eck lad you ad it good! We only 'ad t' neighbours door step (no house of our own) and we were grateful for that! What the bloomin 'ecks a Diamond plate. Summit a queen eats pie and mash off? (not sure if a Devon lad is the best to try "northern" but I gave it a shot )

 

[G S Haydon]

I'll be interested to see how you feel about the oil stones Corneel, are they hollow? (hammer) (its all relative) :lol:

 

[Corneel]

what are you chasing you should open a shop with all that lot man .
3 diamond plates
1 wooden block with leather on it as a strop
you need a shed to keep all that in mate

3 diamond plates, that easilly adds up to 150 pound, and then you only have small ones of 150 mm length. So, your method costs real money too. And a grinder is a very usefull tool in a workshop for all kinds of jobs.

Maybe I shouldn't have done the waterstones. But such is life, live and learn. And when you're dead you can't take your money with you anyway.

All these methods cost about the same in the end. Diamonds, waterstones, oilstones. When you want a decent finish stone at least. I think oilstones are the cheapest.

 

[Corneel]

I'll be interested to see how you feel about the oil stones Corneel, are they hollow? (hammer) (its all relative) :lol:

The Arkansas is remarkably flat. The Washita has a weird wear pattern on one side, no idea what kind of tools were used. It has a "channel" running diagonally over the stone. The other side is plenty flat enough for me.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

t'oilstones! bye 'eck lad you ad it good! We only 'ad t' neighbours door step (no house of our own) and we were grateful for that! What the bloomin 'ecks a Diamond plate. Summit a queen eats pie and mash off? (not sure if a Devon lad is the best to try "northern" but I gave it a shot )

I thought you Devon lads ran up Dartmoor and rubbed your tools on a Tor (in the old days that is - probably get arrested for doing that these days).

As for doorsteps - you were lucky! All we've got in Cheshire is clay, so we 'ad to bake us own bricks to rub us tools on. It was that or rub us tools on Chester city walls - probably get arrested for that these days, an' all!

 

[G S Haydon]

CC, the rumours of me rubbing my tool on a famous landmark are completely false..............

Nice find Corneel, I keep a look out for an Arkansas like yours but struggle to find 'em. I found what I think is a Charnley at a vintage fair this year for 99p (yes I passed the "you're not allowed to spend much money test") but have yet to give it a home and try it properly. It's pretty flat

 

[bugbear]

CC, the rumours of me rubbing my tool on a famous landmark are completely false..............

Nice find Corneel, I keep a look out for an Arkansas like yours but struggle to find 'em. I found what I think is a Charnley at a vintage fair this year for 99p (yes I passed the "you're not allowed to spend much money test") but have yet to give it a home and try it properly. It's pretty flat

I have a real soft spot (and quite an accumulation) of these lovely old stones that haven't been cut fully square on all sides. Some of them
have only 1 flat surface, the upper one.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Diamond plates? Luxury!! When ar worra lad we ad nowt but t'oilstone (if we wor lucky!). Woodwok wer no woss fer it neither. Tell that t't'youth of terday!
Actually quite true.

I thought you used a diamond abrasive Diapad to "freshen" your famous india stone. Pricy.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

No it was free. From another job.
Other things will do - e.g. a bit of a scrub with a coarse wirewool or a steel pan scrubber every now and then. But 3m Diapads are ideal and not expensive - £5 or so on ebay

 

[matthewwh]

Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.

Once the flat side of the cutter is flattened and polished, the time spent flattening and polishing it has already been wasted - that's the point!

I'm sorry to press you on this Charles - it's nothing personal. I agree entirely about the beneficial effects of a slightly deformable strop, it just frustrates and fascinates me that a straightforward, all upside, no downside, genuinely useful idea like the ruler trick meets anything other than instant universal adoption.

I have yet to speak to anyone who has a single valid argument against it.

"Once I've wasted half an hour I can get the same effect as I could have achieved in less than a minute" still doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Jacob]

..... it just frustrates and fascinates me that a straightforward, all upside, no downside, genuinely useful idea like the ruler trick meets anything other than instant universal adoption.

I have yet to speak to anyone who has a single valid argument against it......

The ruler is redundant. The without a ruler trick is done routinely by millions of people. Done better in fact, at lower angles and with less fiddling about. Most people do it without giving it a thought i.e. putting more pressure on the tool towards the edge end and effectively forming a slight face bevel, barely noticeable. If necessary lifting it a touch to form a more obvious bevel.
it also means you don't have to flatten and polish the face - which is probably the biggest time wasting and pointless ritual of the new sharpeners.