Setting Planer Tables

[sams93]

So I have finally got myself to a position of having rebuilt the KITY636 I have been restoring. I have come to the stage of setting the tables, which I am finding an incredibly fiddly job. Is there any advice or help anyone can give me on this process. It feels like whenever I sort one alignment out, i'm back to square one with another. I feel like there should be a process that I should be following but am missing!

I have just purchased a dial indicator gauge so I am hoping that may help me in the next steps...



I should be grateful for any help or advice on the matter!

 

[clogs]

Hi Sam,
did u get to use the machine before the strip down....?..and how was it.....?

I have found as an initial set up for tables goes like this.....
are the blades assuming ur using HSS and not a helix are at the same height on /in the spindle.....?
then set the out feed table so that the table is exactly the same height as the blades across the table....
then lower the infeed table say 1/2 a mm......that will be the amount planed off......
then checking the tables are parallel with the blades...thats across the blades....
u should be close to perfect....
some say that the out feed table should be slightly lower than the blade height but I dont do that anymore as it encourages snipe.....

If u have a problem with twist across the mouth of the outfeed table compared to the blade there is a little adjustment for the table...
BUT the start of the whole procedure is blade hight accuracy......

Lets say the out feed has a little twist compared to the blade across the table and table adjustment wont help .......
should add only use one blade, the rest u can adjust later.....
I'd be altering the blade to suit the table but u should not need anymore than a few thou.....
adjustment of a 1mm or more could mean there is something really wrong......
it wont be dirt or rubbish as u have cleaned everything that's providing there are no burr's...
do the tables slide on the guides OK....?.
I have seen even cast iron machines that have been dropped get to have a twist across the tables and or frame........just something to think about......
The infeed table does nothing more than support the timber as the wood should be pressed down on the outfeed side.....
but it also needs to be close to level with the blades.....
Hope this helps a bit .....not trying to teach u to suck eggs.....
If u were close by I'd be happy to show u how to set the machine up over tea n cake.....hahaha...
anything else just ask......
remember get it working close enough then take ur time to trim until perfect.....
spending a day messing with this adjustment and getting wound up is a bear......when u get fed up STOP and start again the next day...
of course u'll have just 1/2 this fun when changing the blades for freshly sharpened ones.....
REMEMBER please check EVERY nut and bolt esp the blade locking bolts before u run up the machine.....
Provided the saftey gaurd is in place let the machine run just for a min or two doing nothing....
Better to go wrong now than when planing and ur hands are close....safety is everything....
Changing blades.....
after 50 years I still hate this job.....and yes it still takes time.....
I can see why people run their machine with blunt blades....

lastly I mentioned a Helix set up.....for my machine it would have to be custom made and at around £2000 I can't afford it at my time of life.....
there are other types of blade holder that just slot in, who's name I can't remember mostly Swiss or German but the cost the same roughly as the Helix system....
hope this helps a bit.....Frank

 

[rogxwhit]

It tends to be a bit trial and error at the best of times. You have 4 things that are interdependent and it's a case of having to balance them out - cutterblock assembly (forget the knives for the minute), infeed table, outfeed table and thicknesser bed. I'd tend to start with the thickness bed (get it parallel lengthways and widthways to the frame base of the machine by adjusting the jacking screws with the chain disconnected. Then install the chain carefully so as not to move any of the jacks, and tension it. Then I'd reference the cutterblock body to the thickness bed across the width of the machine, and check that the two feed rollers are close to an equal height above the bed along the length of the machine. Then tighten the cutterblock / feed roller assembly mounting screws.

I don't know that you need any gauges - various wooden packing pieces can be handy, and a metre steel straightedge and a square are pretty essential for the surface tables and fence.

Lightly install a knife so that the heel of its bevel just meets the trench in the cutterblock. If the projection is greater you will prejudice the traction of the feed rollers on the wood when thicknessing because the relative heights will be inappropriate. Lightly install both tables. Keep adjusting until you get them level with the cutting circle and with each other, along and across and diagonally.

I wonder how they assembled these in the works, and assume they had production jigs. With age they get misaligned by abuse or inappropriate 'maintenance'.

Stay cool, take a break when needed, the whole thing can take a while. ;-)

 

[rogxwhit]

The key to these machines is that the holes for the fixing screws seem to be oversized enough to allow a modicum of adjustment. But the leeway's limited, so don't let any of the elements get too far out on its own, and keep the overview in mind.

 

[sams93]

Hi Sam,
did u get to use the machine before the strip down....?..and how was it.....?

Didn't use it before strip down - it was in a complete state!

I have found as an initial set up for tables goes like this.....
are the blades assuming ur using HSS and not a helix are at the same height on /in the spindle.....?

Blades are HSS - I read later in your post to set one knife and work off that, then worry about the second one later! That sounds simpler to manage...

then set the out feed table so that the table is exactly the same height as the blades across the table....
then lower the infeed table say 1/2 a mm......that will be the amount planed off......
then checking the tables are parallel with the blades...thats across the blades....
u should be close to perfect....
some say that the out feed table should be slightly lower than the blade height but I dont do that anymore as it encourages snipe.....

Useful to know - will try and set it at about the same height - I have been looking at the steel ruler drag test thing, my aim in theory is for 2-3mm or so but let's see how i get on....

If u have a problem with twist across the mouth of the outfeed table compared to the blade there is a little adjustment for the table...
BUT the start of the whole procedure is blade hight accuracy......

Lets say the out feed has a little twist compared to the blade across the table and table adjustment wont help .......
should add only use one blade, the rest u can adjust later.....
I'd be altering the blade to suit the table but u should not need anymore than a few thou.....
adjustment of a 1mm or more could mean there is something really wrong......
it wont be dirt or rubbish as u have cleaned everything that's providing there are no burr's...
do the tables slide on the guides OK....?.

Tables slide beautifully on the guides - only the infeed table slides the outfeed is fixed.

I have seen even cast iron machines that have been dropped get to have a twist across the tables and or frame........just something to think about......
The infeed table does nothing more than support the timber as the wood should be pressed down on the outfeed side.....
but it also needs to be close to level with the blades.....
Hope this helps a bit .....not trying to teach u to suck eggs.....
If u were close by I'd be happy to show u how to set the machine up over tea n cake.....hahaha...

If only I were closer to you i'd definitely take you up on the offer, I expect I would be a lot warmer too...

anything else just ask......
remember get it working close enough then take ur time to trim until perfect.....
spending a day messing with this adjustment and getting wound up is a bear......when u get fed up STOP and start again the next day...
of course u'll have just 1/2 this fun when changing the blades for freshly sharpened ones.....

I am thinking that I should get these sharpened first and then start the process, becasue currently I'm using a set with a few dings in that I will need to get sharpened up at the end of the process, but I was saving that for later.

REMEMBER please check EVERY nut and bolt esp the blade locking bolts before u run up the machine.....
Provided the saftey gaurd is in place let the machine run just for a min or two doing nothing....
Better to go wrong now than when planing and ur hands are close....safety is everything....
Changing blades.....
after 50 years I still hate this job.....and yes it still takes time.....
I can see why people run their machine with blunt blades....

lastly I mentioned a Helix set up.....for my machine it would have to be custom made and at around £2000 I can't afford it at my time of life.....
there are other types of blade holder that just slot in, who's name I can't remember mostly Swiss or German but the cost the same roughly as the Helix system....

Yeah I have read about the TERSA system but all of these things would cost wayy more than my machine, I think ill try and get by as it is

hope this helps a bit.....Frank

Thankyou +++ I will definitely be returning with some more questions after I have had a go at this with the advice

It tends to be a bit trial and error at the best of times. You have 4 things that are interdependent and it's a case of having to balance them out - cutterblock assembly (forget the knives for the minute), infeed table, outfeed table and thicknesser bed. I'd tend to start with the thickness bed (get it parallel lengthways and widthways to the frame base of the machine by adjusting the jacking screws with the chain disconnected. Then install the chain carefully so as not to move any of the jacks, and tension it. Then I'd reference the cutterblock body to the thickness bed across the width of the machine, and check that the two feed rollers are close to an equal height above the bed along the length of the machine. Then tighten the cutterblock / feed roller assembly mounting screws.

I hadn't considered starting with the thickness table, I kind of assumed that would be the last thing I would do. How do I take the measurements bed to cutterblock body? I had planned to run pieces through on each side and measure them when it was up and running to make these adjustments.

I don't know that you need any gauges - various wooden packing pieces can be handy, and a metre steel straightedge and a square are pretty essential for the surface tables and fence.

Lightly install a knife so that the heel of its bevel just meets the trench in the cutterblock. If the projection is greater you will prejudice the traction of the feed rollers on the wood when thicknessing because the relative heights will be inappropriate. Lightly install both tables. Keep adjusting until you get them level with the cutting circle and with each other, along and across and diagonally.

Interesting about starting with the knives set low to help with feed roller alignment, thanks for that!

I wonder how they assembled these in the works, and assume they had production jigs. With age they get misaligned by abuse or inappropriate 'maintenance'.

Stay cool, take a break when needed, the whole thing can take a while. ;-)

Take a break seems to have cropped up a few times, I will heed that advice.

 

[deema]

I’m not familiar with this machine, but have set up a number of PTs. @Sideways and I wrote up a thread in refurbishing a Sedgwick PT that we detailed how we set up the tables. The process is always the same with some slight tweaks depending in the machine topology. Firstly, having mounted the infeed table check with a clock that it is parallel with the spindle, not the blades. If it isn’t, work out what can be adjusted to get it so, and for it to remain so throughout its travel. There is usually a way of achieving this.
Next, mount the outfeed table and set the front edge to be parallel with the spindle. Now raise or lower the in feed so that the two table edges towards the spindle are exactly at the same height. Check they are parallel with each other and the spindle block. Again a clock is your friend for this. Now set the two tables so that they are coplaner, a long straight edge is required. To achieve this use shims, or the PT may have adjustment jacks for aligning the outfeed table. For shims, you cant go too far wrong than using either a set of feeler gauges or our go to shim material, a beer can. They have remarkably accurate wall thicknes.
If you set the tables to the blades and not the spindle, as suggested, you will end up with a taper cut on the thicknesser.

 

[sams93]

I’m not familiar with this machine, but have set up a number of PTs. @Sideways and I wrote up a thread in refurbishing a Sedgwick PT that we detailed how we set up the tables. The process is always the same with some slight tweaks depending in the machine topology. Firstly, having mounted the infeed table check with a clock that it is parallel with the spindle, not the blades. If it isn’t, work out what can be adjusted to get it so, and for it to remain so throughout its travel. There is usually a way of achieving this.

Sorry - a clock? Is that slang for a dial test indicator? So just take readings at each end of the table against the spindle of the cutter block? Can I take the readings from the block or does it need to be the spindle ends?

Next, mount the outfeed table and set the front edge to be parallel with the spindle. Now raise or lower the in feed so that the two table edges towards the spindle are exactly at the same height. Check they are parallel with each other and the spindle block. Again a clock is your friend for this. Now set the two tables so that they are coplaner, a long straight edge is required. To achieve this use shims, or the PT may have adjustment jacks for aligning the outfeed table. For shims, you cant go too far wrong than using either a set of feeler gauges or our go to shim material, a beer can. They have remarkably accurate wall thicknes.

So I am not sure how I go about adjusting my outfeed table, I have attached photos of the various parts. The tables clamp down and ride along a steel rod, however there does not appear to be an obivous way of shimming or adjusting this.
There are oval slots in the housing where the 'bridge' pieces which secure the tables bolt on, as a previous reply mentioned, I have so far been trying to adjust the tables by adjusting the position using leeway in these bolt holes.

Is this the method I should be using for this machine?

If you set the tables to the blades and not the spindle, as suggested, you will end up with a taper cut on the thicknesser.

Point taken, but isn't this why I have to adjust the thicknesser table as well?

Thanks again for sharing the expertise and experience, it really is appreciated.

 

[deema]

Well you can use a dial test indicator, but I find a clock / dial indicator far easier. I actually use a One Way Multi gauge for doing it.

The body of the spindle is fine to reference the tables off, it has to be accurately machined for it to be balanced.

The design of the table assembly indicates that the design engineers never used or setup this type of machine to me. The method of adjustment appears to be as you’ve indicated the slotted holes. There are two axis to get right, I suspect they the factory had a jig that clamped the two tables together coplanar when they were installed. You can do the same with some straight wooden beam Clamped to the tables.

If the knives are not set level, then the force at one end of the spindle will be higher than the other with the weight further from the centre. This will shorten the bearing life.

You would normally align the thicknesser table to the spindle body.

 

[sams93]

Well you can use a dial test indicator, but I find a clock / dial indicator far easier. I actually use a One Way Multi gauge for doing it.

Just for learning - what is the difference between a dial test indicator and a dial indicator?

The body of the spindle is fine to reference the tables off, it has to be accurately machined for it to be balanced.

The design of the table assembly indicates that the design engineers never used or setup this type of machine to me. The method of adjustment appears to be as you’ve indicated the slotted holes. There are two axis to get right, I suspect they the factory had a jig that clamped the two tables together coplanar when they were installed. You can do the same with some straight wooden beam Clamped to the tables.

If the knives are not set level, then the force at one end of the spindle will be higher than the other with the weight further from the centre. This will shorten the bearing life.

You would normally align the thicknesser table to the spindle body.

 

[deema]

Dial test indicator


Dial / clock indicator

 

[MichaelChou]

I think this is similar to yours

 

[sams93]

Gauge thing arrived today - I noticed they called it a dial test indicator gauge on the packaging but it is definitely what we referred to earlier as a dial gauge!

I was surprised to find that my out feed table is fairly well aligned as it was set by eye (within 0.2mm). Looking forwards to taking my time getting it all sorted over weekend.

What sort of tolerances should I be aiming for with the tables?


I’ll take the blades to be sharpened next week, £15 to sharpen them seems a bit steep when new ones are like £25 but oh well!

 

[deema]

The planner blades should be set from memory around 7 thou above the outfeed table which is c0.15mm. So if you have a 0.1mm variance it’s taking up a lot of the projection of the blade. As the blades dull they shorten in length, if they get too dull the blades can be below the outfeed table and it will start to cut a taper along the stuffs length rather than straight.

We usually set the tables to within at least 0.02mm but anything better than 0.05 is fine. Everything needs to be spotlessly clean when you’re measuring to these tolerances. A tiny spec of dust under the base or the tip of the clock will be enough to skew your readings. Check the repeatability of the gauge before starting your measurements. Ie measure, take the base and clock off the table measure again, do it say 10 times and see how much variation you get. It will save a lot of frustration if the clock setup isn’t repeatable!

 

[rogxwhit]

I hadn't considered starting with the thickness table, I kind of assumed that would be the last thing I would do. How do I take the measurements bed to cutterblock body? I had planned to run pieces through on each side and measure them when it was up and running to make these adjustments.

With a trad cast iron machine, certain alignments are baked in at time of manufacture, with mating machined lands on the castings. This isn't so with the 636, which has adjustment leeway in all directions, so things are a bit looser. In a way this requires more caution and it's easier for conflicts to arise and a necessity to backtrack (which can be a pain). But I'm suggesting that the relationship between frame, cutterblock and thickness table is primary. The frame if you like is a given, and the first thing to set could be the thickness bed or the cutterblock - take your pick - followed by the other.

The most sensitive relationship here might be that between the feed rollers and the thickness bed. The rollers are part of the head assembly, and have to align with the bed across and along. They have limited projection below the cutting circle, thus you can easily get a situation one or both rollers fail to grab the work and feed properly.

That's why I suggested setting the thickness bed first, parallel to the frame, then setting the head assembly parallel to that in turn. I'd use evenly thicknessed wood blocks, adjust the thickness height appropriately, and rest the feed rollers on the thickness bed via the blocks. This isn't a rule or set in stone, but just seems sensible. Then tighten the head assembly.

Knives and top tables come last. Deema's notion of clamping the tables together for initial fixing is sound.

 

[MikeK]

With my former P/T, I started with the critical item that had no adjustments, which was the cutter block. The cutter block bearing bushings were attached to the frame with no possibility of adjustment.

Using the cutter block as the reference point, these were the items to adjust in this order:

1. Outfeed planer table (easiest, but still a pain)
2. Infeed planer table (learning to hover a helicopter took less time and was easier)
3. Thicknesser table (most difficult given the undiscovered missing parts from the factory and poor locking design)
4. Knives (by far the easiest, but only possible after completing gauntlet above)

 

[rogxwhit]

The thing is that with the Kity 636 of the vintage pictured, which is what's being discussed here, everything is adjustable to an extent - only the basic frame of the machine is a given, so that's the starting point.

 

[MikeK]

If that is the case, I would put the cutter block first and then keep the other items in same order, working from easiest to most evil and ending with the knives.