Selling woodwork - legal measures?

[Jacob]

...
We live in a world of potential litigation ....

Hmm, more like a world of paranoia and anxiety!
Ask yourself - how many times have you (or anybody you know) litigated or been litigated against, by a woodworker, or as a woodworker? Me - never.
If there really are obvious risks then some sort of risk assessment might be the place to start but wooden bowls and tables sound fairly safe to me!

 

[Chris152]

If selling I think that everyone should at least have public and product liability insurance. It doesn't cost the earth.

Definitely and especially if there is ever the possibility you might deliver something in person to a customer premises, have a customer visit your workshop / showroom or sell from a stand at a fair, in the case of the fair many organisers will insist anyway.

We live in a world of potential litigation whether we like it or not and to ignore that is pretty silly imo.

As others have said though you really need to test the market first and I'd be making very small quantities of various items to do that. Have you been around the fairs, asked all your family and friends, looked at local competition.
Very difficult to make sales without knowing who your customers will be and what they will buy.

You're probably right saying bowls and tables are fairly safe bets Jacob, but I think LH and Bob are right - just the slim chance that some 'no win, no fee' solicitor could come chasing me for what i've worked hard for over the years makes insurance a good option to my mind.

Bob - I've been looking at the market around me and beyond, and actively involved in it (I've organised and taken part in art exhibitions and organised a wood fair recently) and have sold art work in the past - but the prospect of selling pieces for food to go in got me thinking, hence I asked the questions.

 

[thetyreman]

the chances of anybody actually claming are extremely low, to the point where you are more likely to join nasa or become a red arrow pilot.

 

[Jacob]

...... but the prospect of selling pieces for food to go in got me thinking, hence I asked the questions.

Don't sell "for food to go in" just sell as a bowl.
Check out the finish suppliers spec if you are really worried. Some finishes are sold specifically as 'food safe' which means you would be covered by the supplier.
Have you ever heard of anybody reacting to walnut oil used as a hard finish? Google it and find out?

 

[Mike Jordan]

I see no reason why normal tradesmen's public liability and product liability should cost more than £100 per year.
Some of the more beaurocratic organisations get really carried away with liability insurance. Some years back I wanted to attend a boaters rally with a few items of joinery and a chair to sit on and talk to boaters. The fee was substantial but the kiss of death was the need for a written risk assessment ,fire extinguisher, and five million pounds of insurance cover! Needless to say that was one empty space in their posh tent.

 

[Chris152]

Didn't realise this could be so contentious. I'll make an appointment to meet the local govt. business development person in the morning.

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Chris

 

[Lons]

Not contentious at all Chris, just that not everyone has the same cavalier attitude that Jacob has and whilst at the minute it might be only wooden bowls who knows where future direction will take you.

Public liability is very cheap, mine cost £64 for £2 million cover a couple of years ago and the fact that Jacob doesn't know of anyone who has "been litigated against" is of little consequence, the risk however small is still there.mod edit.

Not the same scenario but a number of years ago my brother in law who has a small metal fabrication company had a customer on his premises who brought his wife and 10 year old son along, they were kept away from the production area but the lad managed somehow to get a splinter of metal in his foot which turned septic and he was hospitalised. They sued him and his insurance company paid out £7k for " suffering and inconvenience".

Not everyone is paranoid Jacob - just aware! :roll:

Might be a chance in millions but IMO not worth the risk for little more than a quid a week.
Your choice Chris and you've clearly done your homework, none of us can offer anything but our opinion though certain posters might state those opinions as fact.

Good luck with the venture, hope it works for you, self employment if it ever comes to that can be very rewarding though bloody hard work.

Bob

 

[doctor Bob]

Didn't realise this could be so contentious. I'll make an appointment to meet the local govt. business development person in the morning.

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Chris

Good luck with that, I think our one was the most ridiculous red tape chap I've ever met. Would have cost us £1000's if we were daft enough to follow his advice. Just use your common sense, if these advisers were the bollox's then they would be setting up their own successful companies

 

[Doug71]

From personal experience the problems only start once you employ people :x

Do get public and product liability insurance, also tell your home insurance you are running a business from there. I don't know at what point you need planning consent?

 

[AES]

I've never sold anything woody, but was self-employed for a period in a completely different area where several insurances were a must. Based on that experience I think that the post by Lons (2 above this) is the most sensible and down to earth of the whole lot here. Just FWIW. Good luck to the OP in his new venture.

Oh, BTW, if my experience is anything to go by, you'll meet customers who sound a lot like Jacob does here. Learning how to deal with people like that is one of the most satisfactory aspects of being self employed - ONCE you've developed the knack! That BTW starts with taking a DEEP breath :lol:

 

[Jacob]

.....
Oh, BTW, if my experience is anything to go by, you'll meet customers who sound a lot like Jacob does here. Learning how to deal with people like that is one of the most satisfactory aspects of being self employed - ONCE you've developed the knack! That BTW starts with taking a DEEP breath :lol:

Something tells me you would be absolutely no good at all at dealing with customers like me. Don't take too many deep breaths this can lead to fainting fits!

I'm merely suggesting to our OP that he shouldn't get put off at the beginning by anxiety about a host of potential rules, regulation, pitfalls. Most of these will be easy to sort out as and when, and many of them will prove to be common sense, or irrelevant, even imaginary.
Also - when it come to it, the agencies concerned will tend to helpful and full of advice if asked. They aren't out to get you.
To get back to reality - selling is the biggest problem and should be concern number one.

 

[AES]

Jacob, you wrote, QUOTE: Something tells me you would be absolutely no good at all at dealing with customers like me. UNQUOTE:

Not for the first time by any means Jacob, IMO what you're writing here is a L O N G way away from any sort of practical reality! AND, BTW, taking "A" deep breath will not give anyone fainting fits (hammer)

 

[Lons]

Just in case anyone read my last post yesterday before it was edited by the mods I feel I need to explain that the comments which have now disappeared were in relation to one of my mates, a jobbing builder who was sued over a job he did which went wrong. He didn't have liability insurance and because of it he lost his business and later had to sell his house.

The first I knew that there was a mod edit was when I received a pm from Jacob saying he had reported my post because he thought I was describing his circumstances and spreading malicious gossip but once I had explained he accepted that and we're both good with it, well as much as it can be between people who fundamentally disagree with each other. :lol:

I've never attacked Jacob or anyone else in such a personal manner and never will whether I vehemently disagree or not.

I've written to Noel and hope that clears up the matter in case anyone was offended.

Bob

 

[Jacob]

yes sorry Bob. But that's how it read!
Thing is - I did have a rough patch about 30 years ago, but didn't lose business, house or get sued! Did end up in divorce courts though.

 

[Lons]

yes sorry Bob. But that's how it read!
Thing is - I did have a rough patch about 30 years ago, but didn't lose business, house or get sued! Did end up in divorce courts though.

Divorce is just as bad Jacob, wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

[Chris152]

My conclusions, take or leave them:
If you're making any work to sell, you have a business, apparently. Regardless of how big or small it is. Which - if you're working from home - can affect your mortgage, household insurance (and presumably invalidate it if equipment causes fire etc. and you've not notified them), and requires you to notify the council for change of use if some part of the household is dedicated to the business, and this could affect your rates. After the Pret a Manger food allergy labelling incidents, it seems careless not to explicitly list all materials used - and to be able to demonstrate that you've done so - and to have product liability to cover yourself in case anyone decides to take you to court over reactions or complaints about the products you've sold them.

 

[Jacob]

My conclusions, take or leave them:
If you're making any work to sell, you have a business, apparently. Regardless of how big or small it is. Which - if you're working from home - can affect your mortgage, household insurance (and presumably invalidate it if equipment causes fire etc. and you've not notified them), and requires you to notify the council for change of use if some part of the household is dedicated to the business, and this could affect your rates. After the Pret a Manger food allergy labelling incidents, it seems careless not to explicitly list all materials used - and to be able to demonstrate that you've done so - and to have product liability to cover yourself in case anyone decides to take you to court over reactions or complaints about to the products you've sold them.

Except for the nut thing with food utensils (simple - don't use nut oil polishes that's all) the other issues are nothing to worry about. Change of use doesn't come into it just by working from home, unless you alter substantial parts of the building separately for work purposes. Sharing your normal living space with working doesn't count, millions of people do it. It's only when you get a bit bigger than "cottage industry" (more noise, machines, traffic, employees, etc) that you may have to act but nobody is out to get you - ask the planners or your insurers if you are worried.

 

[Chris152]

My conclusions, take or leave them:
If you're making any work to sell, you have a business, apparently. Regardless of how big or small it is. Which - if you're working from home - can affect your mortgage, household insurance (and presumably invalidate it if equipment causes fire etc. and you've not notified them), and requires you to notify the council for change of use if some part of the household is dedicated to the business, and this could affect your rates. After the Pret a Manger food allergy labelling incidents, it seems careless not to explicitly list all materials used - and to be able to demonstrate that you've done so - and to have product liability to cover yourself in case anyone decides to take you to court over reactions or complaints about to the products you've sold them.

Except for the nut thing with food utensils (simple - don't use nut oil polishes that's all) the other issues are nothing to worry about. Change of use doesn't come into it just by working from home, unless you alter substantial parts of the building separately for work purposes. Sharing your normal living space with working doesn't count, millions of people do it. It's only when you get a bit bigger than "cottage industry" (more noise, machines, traffic, employees, etc) that you may have to act but nobody is out to get you - ask the planners or your insurers if you are worried.

So, the only thing that could cause people to take legal action against you is an allergic reaction to nut oil, and if you're running a business from home and the machinery that you're using without notifying the insurance company causes a fire and destroys the house, the insurance company won't mind and cough up the money for a new house etc anyway, and when neighbours complain that you're running a business from home the council will turn a blind eye?

 

[Jacob]

Worry worry!!
Life is full of risks and then you die anyway!
What I'm saying is don't be put off by fear. You are only proposing to do what millions of people do already. If you get beyond the level of hobbyist selling a few items then you take issues step by step as they crop up.
If the neighbours complain the council won't turn a blind eye but you won't suddenly end up in court or paying fines, until/unless you dodge about ignoring them for a log time.

 

[sunnybob]

A simple tag sent with the bowl;
"This product is for decorative purposes only. No other use use is implied or advised".