selling wooden toys

[tsg]

I have now received a reply from Trading Standards. It is a very long and informative note but there are two parts of the regulations that were highlighted for me

".............If you look at section 10 Safety Assessment (page 39, 75) it says (amongst other things):

[...] manufacturers may perform an assessment of the likelihood of the presence in the toy of in particular prohibited or restricted substances. The scope of possible testing can be based on the assessment. Testing only needs to be considered for those substances that can reasonably be expected to appear in the toy in question.

[...] Although a toy material might contain a hazardous substance, the substance might not be capable of becoming bioavailable (i.e. there is no exposure and the substance cannot be absorbed in to the body of the child). In toxicological terms, if there is no exposure there can be no risk.

Your safety assessment for new untreated wood may lead you to believe that testing for chemical contamination is not necessary. However any such decision must be based upon sound reasoning........"

If anyone wants to see the email in full, let me know your email address and I will forward it.

From the above and the context in which it was said, I believe that I can now proceed using assumptions so long as they are thought out and fully explained in writing in the technical file. I am now in the process of compiling the necessary files and certificates and look forward to offering my toys for sale in the not to distant future.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread so far. I will update when I am ready to start selling unless I encounter any more problems along the way.

Paul

 

[Gary Morris]

Perhaps it would be easier to go to a timber supplier, choose some pieces of wood that you need and simply say to them - i'm making a 'wooden' 'tractor' for my 3yr old grandson, is this wood safe to use for him? Possibly take a friend / relative to act as a witness. I would have thought that the answer would have to be a yes or no. The mechant themselves are subject to due diligance and would know.
At what age of child does the ce mark become void? Would a child towards the end of this scale be able to buy a piece of wood from them? If yes then by definition the wood would be safe, or safe to assume it is.

Gary

 

[tsg]

Gary, I like the idea of asking at the point of sale, especially if I can get their name and add it to the receipt. I can then update the technical file with where the wood was purchased and the fact that the seller informed me it was safe.

The rules on toys relate to children up to 14 years old. However, a lump of wood is not a toy until such time as it has been made to look like one and so the rules do not apply until that stage. Selling a child a contaminated piece of wood would not fall under these rules although there are probably others that cover it.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Please email me the letter ([email protected]). We did a lot of research into toys when I was at Good Wood. It would be interesting to see if things have changed. Thanks.

 

[Smithy]

Hi Paul

Many thanks for starting this topic. I have learned a lot from it and it is very much appreciated. I will now start my toy making enterprise knowing that I will be doing things correctly. Please could I have a copy of the TS email. I have sent you a PM with my email address.

Thanks again

Mike

 

[tsg]

We have received a reply today from a wood supplier in Sevenoaks stating that the soft wood they supply is definitely chemical free. I really didn't think that any one would have the bottle to put that in writing but hats off to Gaza Timber (www.gazatimber.co.uk) for sticking their neck out. They will now be getting all my trade if possible regardless if I can save a few quid shopping elsewhere. As long as they provide a reliable service at a reasonable price.
Unfortunately we are now in the process of re modelling our kitchen so the wood work will have to be put on hold for a couple of months.

Anyway it is great to see that there are people out there who are willing to stand by their product, and for anyone else in the South East, here is a possible supplier. I have not tried them yet so I can not comment on their service but I will update this thread as and when I do.

Not sure if they will deliver to France though Mike!

 

[Smithy]

Hi Paul
That is good news for you, another box ticked. I get family friends to bring me woodworking equipment I need from the UK but I think I would be pushing my luck to ask for a car load of timber. I have found a really great family run timber yard that sells beech which I will use for my toys and chestnut which I use for my birdboxes and feeders.

Have you by chance read this months British Woodworking. Nick Gibbs wrote an excellent article about this topic. Thanks Nick.

Mike

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Have you by chance read this months British Woodworking. Nick Gibbs wrote an excellent article about this topic. Thanks Nick. Mike

Thanks, Mike. Referencing another recent thread, I hope this demonstrates where magazines and forums can work together. I'd like to do more research on the topic.

Nick

 

[George1983]

Hey guys,
I`m interested in making wooden toys as well and i have lots of ideas going through my head every time i think about it...
I`ve read the topic but probably i`m not so smart when it comes to understanding how this legal stuff works...
So first of all i need a certificate from the timber merchant to confirm that the wood is chemicals free,then i have to use only approved paint and that`s all i have to do to be in the limits of the law?Nobody checks,nobody asks anything,no other proof joining the toy to proof that is CE approved?

 

[Gary Morris]

My interpretation. For instance if I was selling, part painted wooden toy cars that I had produced, say at a fair, I would have to reasonably satisfied that all the wood, fixings, finishes, construction and packaging were safe for children.
I would have achieved this by getting written or visible proof by.
Timber - It could be a timber yards leaflets or brochure or a written guarantee. As well as receipts to show that I had bought it.
Finishes & Glues - The same as timber plus COSHH sheets, paint tins with contents on etc.
Packaging - Possibly buy food safe items.
I would make a worksheet for each type of toy and list the date made and materials used.
I would have made sure that the toy was 'safe' in the 'design stage' and after completion and possibly a drawing on it's construction. Make sure my CE id is either stuck to it, burnt into it pressed into it or affixed securely. I would keep all of the paperwork in a folder and take it with me. As I see it someone will approach you when your in mid flow of whatever method you use to tell your customers about your hand made toy and produce his or her ID. It would then be a case of showing your due diligence.
This is what I would do, I guess there are many ways of going about it and many more on the depths people would want to go into it.

Gary

 

[dg2000r]

This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):

1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
2. I'll need liability insurance to sell at the fair. Someone on this thread guessed that as being £300. OK, so I'm now looking at a loss of £400.
3. I need to self certify my toys in order to put a CE mark on them, which sounds like a real pain in the backside, but that also seems like another thing that isn't worth risking.

So all in all it seems like it's just not worth doing. I guess I'll just go back to making things to give away to friends - are we still allowed to do that without certificates? :roll:

 

[marcros]

This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):

1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
2. I'll need liability insurance to sell at the fair. Someone on this thread guessed that as being £300. OK, so I'm now looking at a loss of £400.
3. I need to self certify my toys in order to put a CE mark on them, which sounds like a real pain in the backside, but that also seems like another thing that isn't worth risking.

So all in all it seems like it's just not worth doing. I guess I'll just go back to making things to give away to friends - are we still allowed to do that without certificates? :roll:

i hear what you are saying, but to play devils advocate...

1. Yes, if you make an income you have to declare it for tax- the same as anybody else.
2. If your product, which you assure me is safe for my child hurts said child because it wasnt safe after all, then you need more protection than just saying "woops, sorry"
3. I dont think that the CE mark is that bad, providing that you take all reasonable steps- as in the thread above.

I agree that the legislation doesn't inspire you (meaning anybody) to bother making toys, at least on a micro scale. Even simple decorative items would require items 1 and 2 to be satisfied, although you may way up the risk of not insuring.

I am not sure where the hobbies selling a few things at a craft fair from time to time fits in- technically i guess everything should be declared but there may be a difference if you claim to be clearing things out of your house/garage that you nolonger want.

 

[Eric The Viking]

You don't need to be a company: you can operate as a sole trader. But you DO need to declare the activity for tax, same as everyone else.

I'm a sole trader. I don't earn much. The revenue forms aren't hard to fill in, and they expect you to make a loss in the first year. If you only declare the loss though, and not any profitable trading, and you offset that loss against tax paid on other activity (e.g. employment), they may get shirty, but generally, if it's obvious you're being straight with them, they're fine (in my experience). If they inspect, they'll look for records, but not necessarily full accounts. There are exemptions to the audit requirements for small businesses.

It's worth getting a couple of cheap paperbacks on starting up, as they often have handy checklists in them. The trick is to keep good records. If you're making things for sale, that's pretty easy - what you spent on materials, heat+light, etc. and how much you sell items for and when. Two notebooks - expenditure and sales would suffice, and you need to keep you receipts, too.

Generally you can ignore VAT registration, unless you're doing it as a full-time business, as you won't get near the threshold for compulsory registration. And VAT returns are a pain unless you have computerised accounts anyway.

As long as the Revenue know what you're doing and you're not trying to cheat, you shouldn't have a problem with them.

Cheers,

E.

 

[loftyhermes]

To add to the above, if you're going to have less than £5595 earnings in the tax year then you can apply for a National Insurance exemption certificate.

 

[JustBen]

Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
http://www.ibuildit.ca/Workshop%20Proje ... ks-13.html
He uses ink transfer and then coats it in oil/varnish etc.
Costs are minimal, quick and simple to do.

As for the original topic, there are some very interesting comments and a lot of good info.

Am keeping a beady eye on it.

 

[brianhabby]

Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
http://www.ibuildit.ca/Workshop%20Proje ... ks-13.html
He uses ink transfer and then coats it in oil/varnish etc.
Costs are minimal, quick and simple to do.

That's an old trick using the solvent. I believe you can also do it dry by ironing it on.

regards

Brian

 

[Jelly]

This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):

1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
2. I'll need liability insurance to sell at the fair. Someone on this thread guessed that as being £300. OK, so I'm now looking at a loss of £400.
3. I need to self certify my toys in order to put a CE mark on them, which sounds like a real pain in the backside, but that also seems like another thing that isn't worth risking.

So all in all it seems like it's just not worth doing. I guess I'll just go back to making things to give away to friends - are we still allowed to do that without certificates? :roll:

Don't forget your due diligence requirements under the new EU timber regs... you'll basically have to keep a record of your materials purchases, and take reasonable steps to check that your supplier isn't lying to you and selling illegal timber (if you're purchasing from an established merchant this won't be an issue in practice).

 

[trsleigh]

Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
http://www.ibuildit.ca/Workshop%20Proje ... ks-13.html
He uses ink transfer and then coats it in oil/varnish etc.
Costs are minimal, quick and simple to do.

That's an old trick using the solvent. I believe you can also do it dry by ironing it on.

regards

Brian

Old to you maybe, but potentially very useful for me, so thanks benjimano.
I have tried the dry ironing method with some success but I suspect that the results are very dependent on the individual laser printer and how well it fuses the image.

 

[pip1954]

hi i used to work in a timber factory making toys and childrens climbing frames, and play items, i know they would spend a lot of time making sure toys conformed to the regs there are a lot of rules and they used to test every part of that toy any ink was tested for chemicals and had certificates and paint was tested by the manufacturer and certified . when i started working there there was a large batch(300plus) boards that where tested and failed because of lead content none where sold and the company footed the bill.( even tough the manufacturer certified them)
there are also regs on holes not sure how small these go down to but i remember head holes where very hot on getting them right they may also cover finger traps it really is a bit of a mine field ,they employed about 35 people and had two/three people checking and testing and working in development full time .
we used a lot of mdf in the manufacturing process and tulip wood ,beech.
but because it was a large company the ts would work with them to get items sorted and certified .
but good luck with your venture
pip

 

[tsg]

Well as far as I'm concerned my toys now carry the CE mark. I think that all the T's have been crossed and all the I's dotted. I have just got to make some toys now. An updated website is being created as we speak to showcase what we make, both toys and other gifts.
Thanks for all the advice and help I have received from this site, I hope to keep you updated with what happens next.
Paul