Self centering dowel jig?

[transatlantic]

I've been trying to find a self centering dowel jig like below for sale in the UK. Has anyone come across one?

I already have one like this, but I'm not a fan of it. I like the idea of being able to drill more than one hole at a time as it would make alignment much easier. The closet I have come across is the "Axminster No 1 Dowelling Jig", or the "Double Dowel Jig" from Rutlands, but they're not quite the same thing.

This looks promising, but I'd rather something that could be clamp securely.

 

[Bodgers]

I battled with a Wolfcraft one and then a Dowel Jointer. They all have their draw backs.

I settled on the dowel centre points in the end. Cheap as well.

I now have a Festool Domino though

 

[custard]

Are you sure about the self centering requirement?

Unless you spend a great deal of money on some serious engineering then any self centering dowel jig would be better described as approximately self centering. In other words any stile and rail you connect with it won't be flush, it might be roughly flush, but it'll still have a small step that you can feel with your fingers and that will be noticeable to the eye once a finish is applied.

I don't know about you, but I'd take no satisfaction or pleasure from building to those kind of crude standards.

However, if you mark up reference faces and edges to all the components, then you can use a regular dowelling jig, working from matching reference faces, and get a far superior result. Plus you can joint a thinner rail to a thicker leg or stile and have the rail a bit closer to the show face, which is very common furniture design requirement because it both looks better and allows you to have longer dowels for a stronger joint.

Seriously, self centering doweling jigs are just hobbyist click bait. Dowels are a perfectly legitimate method of joinery, even in first class work, but do the job with a proper jig.

Good luck!

 

[transatlantic]

Are you sure about the self centering requirement?

Unless you spend a great deal of money on some serious engineering then any self centering dowel jig would be better described as approximately self centering. In other words any stile and rail you connect with it won't be flush, it might be roughly flush, but it'll still have a small step that you can feel with your fingers and that will be noticeable to the eye once a finish is applied.

I don't know about you, but I'd take no satisfaction or pleasure from building to those kind of crude standards.

However, if you mark up reference faces and edges to all the components, then you can use a regular dowelling jig, working from matching reference faces, and get a far superior result. Plus you can joint a thinner rail to a thicker leg or stile and have the rail a bit closer to the show face, which is very common furniture design requirement because it both looks better and allows you to have longer dowels for a stronger joint.

Seriously, self centering doweling jigs are just hobbyist click bait. Dowels are a perfectly legitimate method of joinery, even in first class work, but do the job with a proper jig.

Good luck!

The centering aspect isn't required at all, I just used that name as that is what the more sturdier ones with multiple same size holes look like. What do you mean by proper jig? can you link to something you'd recommend?

 

[deema]

Get yourself a Record 148, these are good, robust and accurate jigs. They are very inexpensive on eBay. Just check that you are getting inserts for the diameter of dowels you will use. Plenty of jigs around, I bought a couple or three to get more drill holes and then some silver rod to make them as long as I want.

 

[Steve Maskery]

You know you really would be better off making a decent router mortising jig, one that you can do end mortices with as well as regular ones.
It isn't very often I disagree with custard, but I'm getting very close to it here. Dowels are inferior to a M&T in almost every single case, mainly because of the relatively small amount of face-grain-to-face-grain gluing area, and large amount of end-grain gluing, which is virtually strengthless.
With a mortising jig you can use loose tenons like a domino and get a far superior joint. The only restriction on rail length is how far you can work above the floor, and if you build your jig as a horizontal mortiser, even that limitation is overcome.
Now let's get back to agreeing with custard , dowelling jigs are click-bait for beginners. You will soon get fed up with the mediocre results and be looking for a better setup.

 

[custard]

Yes the Record is a good jig at a good price, that's what I used for many years and it delivers accurate and repeatable results. Look out for the extension bars, they're a useful accessory if you're making cabinets from sheet goods or solid wood in panel format.

If your budget's a bit larger then you could look at these,

http://www.dowelmax.co.uk

http://www.joint-genie.com/shop/index.p ... ommon/home

The Joint Genie I particularly like as you can screw it to the workpiece (the screw holes are hidden between the dowels) which makes it particularly accurate. In fact I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged by the drill, where as the Joint Genie lasts a lifetime.

Incidentally, the main issue with dowelling isn't the jigs, a proper jig, even a workshop made one, is capable of better than one thou accuracy, the main issue is the dowels which can can go out of round. If your workshop's damp it may be worth storing your dowel stock indoors.

Good luck!

 

[custard]

You know you really would be better off making a decent router mortising jig, one that you can do end mortices with as well as regular ones.
It isn't very often I disagree with custard, but I'm getting very close to it here. Dowels are inferior to a M&T in almost every single case, mainly because of the relatively small amount of face-grain-to-face-grain gluing area, and large amount of end-grain gluing, which is virtually strengthless.
With a mortising jig you can use loose tenons like a domino and get a far superior joint. The only restriction on rail length is how far you can work above the floor, and if you build your jig as a horizontal mortiser, even that limitation is overcome.
Now let's get back to agreeing with custard , dowelling jigs are click-bait for beginners. You will soon get fed up with the mediocre results and be looking for a better setup.

Steve, you're welcome to try and pull apart some of my dowelled joinery. I guarantee you'll get a hernia before the joint gives way!

I agree that a M&T delivers more long grain to grain glue surface, but a well made dowel joint is plenty strong enough, certainly for most modestly sized items of domestic furniture. It's like saying only a Porsche is fast enough to go shopping in, when a Golf is actually plenty fast enough.

Plus, there are applications where a dowel is stronger than traditional joinery, what about jointing a shelf into a cabinet for example? A few dowels at 50mm centres gives way more long grain to long grain glue surface than a traditional housing joint. Or there are specialised applications in chair making where a dowel allied to a very shallow stub tenon is by far the most workmanlike solution to a joinery problem.

I'm convinced that dowels should form part of all furniture makers range of joinery options.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Yes, dowels definitely have their place in fine furniture. I often dowel carcases together, tops and bottoms with overhangs, to the sides. It is a great way of doing so and plenty strong. I always make a 'jig' for the job though, it is nothing more than a baton with holes drilled into it and a fence glued on. Once the job is done the jig gets thrown away. Fluted dowels make up for the lack of side to side grain contact by the mechanical fit in their holes, once glue gets in touch with them. And putting the odd dowel in edge joints is a great help with alignment during glue up, provided the jig is accurate.

Mike.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I did say I was only coming close, custard...
The two examples you give, however are not substitutes for a M&T. The first is a sub for a housing joint, and I agree, in that situation it is a perfectly acceptable solution.
And yes, in some difficult bits of fancy chairmaking, a dowel can save the day. If it is good enough for Savage and Makepeace, I'm hardly in a position to argue. But the examples I have seen are not really substitutes for a M&T.

For anything structural a M&T is far superior.

For me personally the benefit is also practical, as I am well set-up for doing good M&Ts, whereas I'm not for dowels.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Transatlantic, have you considered these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... essem+8350


I've not tried one, but the principle looks sound and the quality of the product is certainly there.

Mike.

Currently listening to Transatlantic.

 

[transatlantic]

Hello,

Transatlantic, have you considered these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... essem+8350


I've not tried one, but the principle looks sound and the quality of the product is certainly there.

Mike.

That's a fair bit out of my price range unfortunately. I was thinking under £50

Currently listening to Transatlantic.

Awesome!

 

[Moonsafari69]

I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged

What size of dowel do you normally make your wooden jigs for? For general furniture is there a rule of thumb or is it just a case of say a 6mm dowel will do most jobs?

 

[Bodgers]

Hello,

Transatlantic, have you considered these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... essem+8350


I've not tried one, but the principle looks sound and the quality of the product is certainly there.

Mike.

Currently listening to Transatlantic.

At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Transatlantic, have you considered these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... essem+8350


I've not tried one, but the principle looks sound and the quality of the product is certainly there.

Mike.

Currently listening to Transatlantic.

At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...

Hello,

And make what in the meantime?

A more optimistic person might have that attitude that for a mere 140 you can do all the things a domino can do and with all the accuracy and speed! And for a hobbyist, that would be the correct attitude, a domino would be immense overkill.

I have looked around for UK available dowelling jigs and unfortunately for the essential accuracy needed, and for dowelling this cannot be overstated, I can find nothing much on a lower budget. The Axminster number one is about the best I can see for about 50 pounds.

Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work.

Mike.

 

[custard]

I often make up my own dowel jigs for a particular job and they always get screwed or pinned to the workpiece, but my workshop made plywood dowel jigs will only last for a couple of jobs before the holes get enlarged

What size of dowel do you normally make your wooden jigs for? For general furniture is there a rule of thumb or is it just a case of say a 6mm dowel will do most jobs?

6 or 8mm would be the two dowels most used for small to medium sized furniture. Krenov seemed to mainly use 5/16" dowels for his cabinets, AFAIK he always made his own jigs!

 

[custard]

At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...

Your money, your choice.

I suspect that Dominos only make sense for a relatively small number of users, mainly sheet goods makers or small scale professionals looking to speed up production. For most hobbyists a Domino is more like a Rolex, high status but carp at telling the time! When I think of the furniture projects that are ideal for a hobbyist to tackle, things like this for example,

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... 4-Seg2.pdf

then it's plain that a Domino is pretty useless for this project, it's either totally unsuitable for the joinery involved or if you could shoe horn a Domino in it would result in a markedly inferior joint or a badly compromised design.

But hey, I guess most woodworkers are far more motivated by kit than furniture, so I've no doubt that Dominos will remain top of most people's lust list!

 

[Moonsafari69]

6 or 8mm would be the two dowels most used for small to medium sized furniture. Krenov seemed to mainly use 5/16" dowels for his cabinets, AFAIK he always made his own jigs!

Thanks, assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain?
For a mid panel T-joint would you use the same design or make one up a with a fence like a T-square?
Now this may be a dumb question but here goes, should the hole and dowel size match and be the same diameter or should the dowel be slightly smaller to allow for the glue up?
Dave.

 

[custard]

assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain?

Yes, screwed or attached with a brad, it's on end grain that the jig is most likely to rock about so benefits most from being secured.

For a mid panel T-joint would you use the same design or make one up a with a fence like a T-square?

Could be either, in many cases you'd have a pencil line referenced from a true edge to align the jig to

Now this may be a dumb question but here goes, should the hole and dowel size match and be the same diameter or should the dowel be slightly smaller to allow for the glue up?
Dave.

That's a really astute question, I believe Krenov used "lettered drills" the specialist engineering drills which are available in sizes a few thou either side of a standard size, and he sometimes used a minutely larger drill in the end grain side of the joint. However, save all that fancy stuff until later in your woodworking career, keep it simple and use a good quality 8mm drill for both sides of the joint along with a good quality 8mm dowel.

 

[Moonsafari69]

However, save all that fancy stuff until later in your woodworking career, keep it simple and use a good quality 8mm drill for both sides of the joint along with a good quality 8mm dowel.[/i]

Brilliant that helps a lot. My next project will be a tv stand and I plan to use dowels to fix down the top so i'll go for the shop-made jig approach. I'm trying to use a new technique on each build, so far it's given me some good learning. Cheers.
Dave.