Self centering dowel jig?

[woodbrains]

assume a board-end jig would be sized to screw into the end grain?

Yes, screwed or attached with a brad, it's on end grain that the jig is most likely to rock about so benefits most from being secured.

For a mid panel T-joint would you use the same design or make one up a with a fence like a T-square?

Could be either, in many cases you'd have a pencil line referenced from a true edge to align the jig to

Now this may be a dumb question but here goes, should the hole and dowel size match and be the same diameter or should the dowel be slightly smaller to allow for the glue up?
Dave.

That's a really astute question, I believe Krenov used "lettered drills" the specialist engineering drills which are available in sizes a few thou either side of a standard size, and he sometimes used a minutely larger drill in the end grain side of the joint. However, save all that fancy stuff until later in your woodworking career, keep it simple and use a good quality 8mm drill for both sides of the joint along with a good quality 8mm dowel.

Hello,

Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.

Mike.

 

[custard]

Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.

Mike.

Interesting, I never met Krenov but I've met several furniture makers who trained under him, and they all tend to be active users of dowel joinery. It might be that his use of a horizontal drill was a legacy from his Swedish years, most of the continental makers I've met seem a bit unhappy around hollow square chisel morticing as I believe they're more used to slot morticers.

 

[RogerP]

Years ago I used dowels then I had a period of trying loose tenons (sort of Dominoes I suppose) and now just cut old fashioned M/T joints which is by far the best method and no special kit needed.

 

[woodbrains]

Krenov actually ground his own drills at one time, something akin to a modern split point drill. Perhaps at the time he could not get good quality lip and spur drills. I know number and letter drills were available at the College of the Redwoods, where he taught, but I suspect when better quality lip and spur drills became available and fluted dowels, which are slightly undersize but expand when water in glue is applied, he used those. He would drill end grain on a horizontal drill, to help with registration, but I'm not sure about using an oversize drill. I should have thought, if he would make any change to drill size for end grain, it would have been undersize, though, as holes in end grain tend to become enlarged. In any case, the College teach dowel resizing to make sure they fit the holes you drill, so the point is moot.

Mike.

Interesting, I never met Krenov but I've met several furniture makers who trained under him, and they all tend to be active users of dowel joinery. It might be that his use of a horizontal drill was a legacy from his Swedish years, most of the continental makers I've met seem a bit unhappy around hollow square chisel morticing as I believe they're more used to slot morticers.

Hello,

I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around. I was also lucky enough to visit his home and workshop and examined some of his furniture. His horizontal drill/slot morticer was originally an add on to his tablesaw. The college has horizontal drilling machines which were used for slot morticing by hand, there were no XY tables. Horizontal drills were useful for making his planes too. I still have a liking for slot mortices, though use them rarely, I have an XY table fitted to the back of my swivel head lathe and a collet chuck to take the bits/drills, so a lot like the original Krenov set up. Though not as quick as a Domino, loose tenons are easy to do with this set up, accurate, convenient and cheap. I'd like to see someone turn table legs on Domino, and then make the mortice in them. Already having a lathe it was 50 quid to turn the thing into a morticer, horizontal drill, disc sander....

Mike.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Funnily enough I've just been given a horizontal mortiser.

Sort of.

It's actually a B&D accessory for a router, c1970, I'd say. There is no router with it, but from the picture on the box it looks like the one my dad had. This kit looks like it has never been assembled, let alone used.

I'm not sure what to do with it, it's a toy, really and I don't have a spare router to mackle it up to.

 

[transatlantic]

Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work.

Mike.

I'm wanting to construct a simple frame like this for a bandsaw stand (BS300), but have it be very strong with slightly thicker stock, about 40x40mm. I always struggle with stuff like this as making one side is easy, but then trying to attach it to one of the other sides is tricky as you're short of space for more dowels, unless you are very careful placing them or end up drilling into existing dowels.

As the glue is supposed to be stronger than the wood itself, is it acceptable to drill into existing dowels? or would that weaken things?

 

[Bodgers]

At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...

Your money, your choice.

I suspect that Dominos only make sense for a relatively small number of users, mainly sheet goods makers or small scale professionals looking to speed up production. For most hobbyists a Domino is more like a Rolex, high status but carp at telling the time! When I think of the furniture projects that are ideal for a hobbyist to tackle, things like this for example,

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... 4-Seg2.pdf

then it's plain that a Domino is pretty useless for this project, it's either totally unsuitable for the joinery involved or if you could shoe horn a Domino in it would result in a markedly inferior joint or a badly compromised design.

But hey, I guess most woodworkers are far more motivated by kit than furniture, so I've no doubt that Dominos will remain top of most people's lust list!

Maybe.

All I know is that I told myself it was crazy to spend that kind of money for a long time. Then one day, in a moment of madness I bought one.

It is great. I was using dowel joinery quite a bit before and it was ok. With the Domino it is great. Repeatable, accurate, and strong joints.

All I am saying is that 140 is a lot of cash to sink into a dowel jig when centre pins, for me work great for dowels. And they are very cheap. If we are moving up to over 100 then I would put that in a piggy bank towards a Domino. But that's just me.



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[transatlantic]

At £140, I'd be throwing that in a Domino fund...

Your money, your choice.

I suspect that Dominos only make sense for a relatively small number of users, mainly sheet goods makers or small scale professionals looking to speed up production. For most hobbyists a Domino is more like a Rolex, high status but carp at telling the time! When I think of the furniture projects that are ideal for a hobbyist to tackle, things like this for example,

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... 4-Seg2.pdf

then it's plain that a Domino is pretty useless for this project, it's either totally unsuitable for the joinery involved or if you could shoe horn a Domino in it would result in a markedly inferior joint or a badly compromised design.

But hey, I guess most woodworkers are far more motivated by kit than furniture, so I've no doubt that Dominos will remain top of most people's lust list!

Maybe.

All I know is that I told myself it was crazy to spend that kind of money for a long time. Then one day, in a moment of madness I bought one.

It is great. I was using dowel joinery quite a bit before and it was ok. With the Domino it is great. Repeatable, accurate, and strong joints.

All I am saying is that 140 is a lot of cash to sink into a dowel jig when centre pins, for me work great for dowels. And they are very cheap. If we are moving up to over 100 then I would put that in a piggy bank towards a Domino. But that's just me.



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While center pins help to align things, they don't really help with keeping the cuts perpendicular, so unless you're using a drill press, don't you still need something to keep your drilling square? The look like a bit of a headache to me.

 

[deema]

That kind of piece is easy with a Record 148. The guides keep the drill perpendicular to the surface. A little practice is advised at first, and for less than £20 the hardened inserts are worth more than that alone. I have used the inserts on a number of occasions to make up my own wooden jigs such as pocket hole, mutlti layered hole patterns when required. The inserts allow repeated use with the concern of inaccuracies building up as the hope gets wider through repeated use. A wooden jig on its own is ok for a couple of drillings, any more and I have found that inaccuracy builds up quickly.

If you get one and don't like it you can simply eBay it again and have lost nothing!

 

[woodbrains]

Transatlantic, what sort of joints do you envisage doing. For carcase construction I can show you the method I have used for many years, which is free, accurate and quick to do. I make one for one job only, and chuck it, making a new one each time, but they take little time to do and remain accurate for that job. You will need some sort of drill press, though for making the jig with perpendicular holes. I have never used this method for M and T substitutes, but there is no reason it shouldn't work.

Mike.

I'm wanting to construct a simple frame like this for a bandsaw stand (BS300), but have it be very strong with slightly thicker stock, about 40x40mm. I always struggle with stuff like this as making one side is easy, but then trying to attach it to one of the other sides is tricky as you're short of space for more dowels, unless you are very careful placing them or end up drilling into existing dowels.

As the glue is supposed to be stronger than the wood itself, is it acceptable to drill into existing dowels? or would that weaken things?

Hello,.

I would make two frames with half laps at the corners and then dowel the 4 rails into those to make the 'box'. The dowels will reinforce the lap joints and there will be no clashing holes. The half lapped frames should be the top and bottom with the doweled members being vertical, that way something placed on top will not be able to break the joints. The frame you show has unsupported cross members, which is a weakness.

Unless you are making this as a leaning excesize for joinery, it would be easier and strong just to screw gussets on to hold the frame together. You might want to add gussets anyway to prevent the frame racking.

I gather you do not have a drill press?

Mike.

 

[transatlantic]

That kind of piece is easy with a Record 148. The guides keep the drill perpendicular to the surface. A little practice is advised at first, and for less than £20 the hardened inserts are worth more than that alone. I have used the inserts on a number of occasions to make up my own wooden jigs such as pocket hole, mutlti layered hole patterns when required. The inserts allow repeated use with the concern of inaccuracies building up as the hope gets wider through repeated use. A wooden jig on its own is ok for a couple of drillings, any more and I have found that inaccuracy builds up quickly.

If you get one and don't like it you can simply eBay it again and have lost nothing!

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. There are two on ebay atm. Looks like the one will go for more than £20 though.

Hello

I would make two frames with half laps at the corners and then dowel the 4 rails into those to make the 'box'. The dowels will reinforce the lap joints and there will be no clashing holes.

I gather you do not have a drill press?

Mike.

Ah, good idea, thanks. I do have a drill press, yes, so can make up my own jig.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Did you read my edit about gussets?

Mike.

 

[transatlantic]

Hello,

Did you read my edit about gussets?

Mike.

Hmmm, well the idea was that it would have draws at some point, so gussets would get in the way. To stop it from racking, I was going to add some 9mm sheet material to each face except the front (which will have draws). The sheet material would be dadoed in. As the sheet material is to stop the racking, and provide more support, I'd need to secure it in place though, which I assume is ok as it is not solid wood, so no movement.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Did you read my edit about gussets?

Mike.

Hmmm, well the idea was that it would have draws at some point, so gussets would get in the way. To stop it from racking, I was going to add some 9mm sheet material to each face except the front (which will have draws). The sheet material would be dadoed in. As the sheet material is to stop the racking, and provide more support, I'd need to secure it in place though, which I assume is ok as it is not solid wood, so no movement.

Hello,

Ply sides are in effect big gussets, if you forgive the parlance!

If you are adding ply, you need no dowel joints at all, though. Half lap two frames and glue and screw the remaning frame members together through the plywood. It will hold everything together very strongly and will save you money on doweling jigs.

Mike.

 

[transatlantic]

If you are adding ply, you need no dowel joints at all, though. Half lap two frames and glue and screw the remaning frame members together through the plywood. It will hold everything together very strongly and will save you money on doweling jigs.

Mike.

Not sure I follow

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I'm on child minding duty today, so a bit preoccupied, but when I get a minute I'll do a drawing.

Mike.

 

[SteveF]

I know that it is a woodwork forum
but money spent on jig and timber...really?
would you not be better off just buying some aluminum extrusion and fittings to make a bandsaw stand?

just a thought

Steve

 

[custard]

I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around.

How cool is that! I heard he was a grumpy old so and so, what was your experience?

 

[Bodgers]

While center pins help to align things, they don't really help with keeping the cuts perpendicular, so unless you're using a drill press, don't you still need something to keep your drilling square? The look like a bit of a headache to me.

Yep, I used a drill press with mine. In combination with a hand drill for longer peices. Last year I built a fairly substantial oak integrated L shaped desk using this method and all the legs, aprons and stretchers are all square.

There are ways to drill a straight hole with a hand drill with good repeatable results. Cut a V channel in a piece of wood as a guide, or get one of those hand drill guide attachments.


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[woodbrains]

I did some training at the Redwoods. Strictly speaking Krenov had retired a year before, but was always around.

How cool is that! I heard he was a grumpy old so and so, what was your experience?

Hello,

It was very cool, the college was in an idillyc location and I regret not being able to stay for the second year, but funds would not allow. I had actually been making for a living for quite a few years before I went; it was not my primary source of training, but it was a great experience.

Strictly speaking, Krenov had not retired, he was asked to go as he had upset some students the year before and they had complained to the dean! Yes, he was very opinionated and did not have a filter. He would say as he felt and it was often scathing. I think the rather innofensive Americans could not understand this, but being English and appreciating more eccentric behaviour, I thought he was fabulous. He would pass through the bench room each day, on the way to the machine room as he did most of his machine work in the college workshop, so he could do mainly handwork in his little home workshop. My bench was right by the door, and we would exchange nods as he passed and then he would glance at another students work on the opposite side. This particular student was a second year, whom Krenov had taken exception too a few years before as he had made a set of drums which Krenov was totally opposed to. He was making a rather unusual shaped desk with glued laminated curvy legs and feet. It was all rather American studio furniture without the due reverence for the materials, as Krenov would have seen it, so he was always making nasty glances as he passed. One particular day he passed by and said in a whisper, loud enough for everyone to hear, ' you could put strings on it, but it won't make music!' That just inflamed that poor student so much, but ****, it was funny.

Another student came running in one day in a right lather, took 'Fine Art of Cabinetmaking' book from under his bench and tore it apart in a rage. 'What is up with him' I thought and then Krenov arrived mumbling about something being 'ugly, ugly, UGLY!' it didn't take much to work out that that student, having both arms in full sleeve tattoo's was getting his art appraised! He was made to make a public apology before he was allowed to use the college facilities again.

But he was also very patient, generous and inspirational. Once he just started talking very poetically about wood grain and some coloured flecks in a particular piece of wood, reminding him of orange flashes of flame in the night sky, when he was a boy, from the hot rivets being thrown by ship builders repairing klinker built ships while still at sea. Wonderful.

He was also a bit of a wood theif. I was making a cabinet and had found a rather nice piece of spalted, rippled, ambrosia maple from the wood store, which I purchased. When I visited his workshop, he was coincidentally making a cabinet from the same timber, the next sequential plank from mine. That kind of explained some of the approving nods he gave me as he passed my bench. However, it turns out that a student the previous year had put her initials in chalk on that plank after buying it, only to find her initials rubbed out and JK written there instead. He was unbelievable.

Mike.