Section P electrical installations a true story.

[kafkaian]

Alan

While I agree with you in principle, I do get fed up with people (Joe Public) expecting to be spoon fed all the time. It's their own damn fault if they don't research properly. If they are too damn lazy to sort things out for themselves, then they get what they deserve.

The problem, as Alan seemingly suggests, is the cloak and dagger manner of the interpretable information available (or not as the case may be). I tell you what gets on my wick, is when I ring up a BCO and get information which is contradicted in the white papers. You then go back to clarify and get silences and measured comments. It's these comments which don't help you decide if something has to follow the letter or whether or not there is room for maneuver.

Windows and doors are a classic example; "I'm going to take my 1905 French window out to repair it and then put it back with new double glazed glass installed. Do you know if that will be BR applicable sir?"

Or as a guy on here wants to do, "I want to put in a downstairs toilet. Will I need BR for the change in connection to the inspection pit?" Some BCOs say you do, some say you don't. It's a bloody nightmare that just adds tons of uncertainty to an otherwise simple project

 

[RogerS]

Alan siad previously

do research

Please don't take this as an attack ...

Alan

Not at all. Fair comment.

My point is that I (as do many others on the forum) take the time and trouble to carry out our own research..including seeking advice from other members on the forum. Where we get conflicting views then we search a little deeper. Many people either expect to be spoon-fed or will accept the answer that they most want to hear and then bitch like hell when it all goes pear-shaped and they do not get my sympathy.

To be fair to BC, it's not always black-and-white and without knowing the whole picture then they can't necessarily answer a question such as yours re replacement window over the telephone.

Also one has to factor in the implications of new technological advances such as multi-foil insulation (and which has been successfully used by others on the forum). This stuff has been around for a while and claims to offer significant U values albeit at a cost. It's particularly useful when you don't want to lose 6 inches of ceiling height in a pitched roof. Posit that these claims are legitimate and that the stuff works. Now, quite a few BC officers around the country have been accepting this as a valid alternative to Kingspan.

However, and this is my take on what's happening out there, the guiding body for BC have recently issued recommendations that the U values are halved (IIRC). And so now you need 65mm of Kingspan plus a layer of Trioso...which kind of defeats the object and doubles the cost. So if you had spoken to a BC officer this time last year then you might have got clearance for Trioso but if you ask them now the story is a different one. Hence the apparent confusion in information supplied.

As an aside, I've been pondering why this apparent about face and my take is that Kingspan et al have seen a threat to their market penetration. The recognised standard test for insulation is the 'hot-box' test. Multi-foil has not been through the 'hot-box' test and so Kingspan have cried 'foul'. However, when the 'hot-box' test was designed and developed, multi-foils (which rely on reflecting heat back into the room) were not around and so the hot-box test only measured heat loss due to convection and conduction. Simply not set-up to measure the heat-loss of multi-foil. So the BBA or whoever have had to issue the recommendations since the multi-foil has not been through the official test route.

So if this is true then I can imagine that the multi-foil manufacturers are trying like mad to get the hot-box test changed and that Kingspan are trying to maintain the status quo.

Sorry for the slightly off-topic direction.

 

[Adam]

Has anyone else experience of actually doing the work, asking for it to be certified by the local authority, and getting into the debate about whether they have a suitably qualified person to do the works?

Karl

Yes. I got into this, debated it with the council, argued over cost. They have now agreed to bring in a company to do the testing - who are a specialist firm with offers exactly this service to local council building control.

Adam

 

[Losos]

I'd ban neon-screwdrivers in the blink of an eye :lol:

Hallelulah :lol: someone who thinks like me. These things are an abomination and heaven only knows how many problems they've caused. :shock:

I do have one, I keep it only because the tip is just the right size for plug tops and I never ever even think about using it as test device.

When half decent multimeters are so readily available now it makes no sense to allow the sale of these things anymore.

It's not like you have to lug an AVO 8 around is it :lol:

 

[cadders75]

Slightly off topic, but i have a question?

Ive had my house recently rewired under part P, i had the contractor surface mount all the cables in trunking, as i was going to knock all the cabling back into the walls as i went along redecorating our new house.

Does this need to be checked under Part P or is it coverd in the exceptions ?

On a side note, after seeing the wiring the previous owner of house had done, i can understand why the Part P regs were brought in. The entire kitchen was wired off the cooker circuit, and he had also taken huge radial ciruits off of the ring mains with no extra fusing, and his way of concealing the wiring was to put it under the carpet :shock:

 

[davy_owen_88]

I don't know whether it would be classed as notifiable work so I would contact your BCO for confirmation. Personally I would get the electrician back after you have done the work to re-test the installation as you will be effectively disconnecting everything and then reconnecting it yourself so all the test results will be void.

Also, the schedule of test results has a column to state the installation method for the cables which will mention that it was surface mounted in non-metallic trunking so it will be clear that it has been modified. The cable ratings will not be effected but during the work there is the possibility that you will damage something which can cause serious problems later on. Did your electrician know what your intentions were? I doubt his guarantee will still be valid after you make these modifications either.

 

[OLD]

cadders75 There is a safe zone where cables should be run and they can be plastered over unprotected, your electrician will have run in this area . maintenance replacement of fittings is also allowed . one of the key elements on part p is the design of the main feed system so that the safety aspects are not compromised. As no alterations are to be done your proposal should therefor not be notifiable in my opinion.

 

[davy_owen_88]

cadders75 There is a safe zone where cables should be run and they can be plastered over unprotected, your electrician will have run in this area . maintenance replacement of fittings is also allowed . one of the key elements on part p is the design of the main feed system so that the safety aspects are not compromised. As no alterations are to be done your proposal should therefor not be notifiable in my opinion.

Firstly, since all the wiring is currently surface mounted there is no requirement, and therefore no guarantee that the wiring is run within the safe-zones. Surface mounted wiring can be run absolutely anywhere because you can see it, so the OP can't just assume that he can sink the cables in the same position as it is run on the surface.

Secondly, the design of the circuits will be changing as he will be changing the installation method used. From trunking to buried in plaster is a positive change, with the cable ratings increasing, but this might not be the case for all the cable runs.

Another thing to check would be whether your electrician used twin & earth or singles. Singles are commonly used in conduit/trunking installs. If he did use singles then you are either going to need another rewire or to sink conduit in the walls also.

 

[Woody Alan]

There is a safe zone where cables should be run and they can be plastered over unprotected

I am not sure whether you really meant to say this, but it is worth mentioning to those who may not know...all regs etc aside as I am clearly out of my depth on that. Plaster/cement can have an effect on the insulation of cable. The result is a sort of gooiness, it doesn't always happen but it can and the time it takes can vary. It always pays to at the very least to cap over before plastering if not using conduit.

Cheers Alan