Scrub Plane - Too specialist?

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bugbear":1bvxpjm1 said:
Alf has a particularly coarse jack, and I have a modified jack that I'd probably feel justified in calling a scrub.

It's more scrub than jack, certainly.

I do understand what you are saying however:

With smaller, very nasty boards -- especially -- I often just hold the board in one hand and the scrub in the other while I knock of the really nasty bits. The scrub is very light and easy to control with one hand. The Jack is not; it is do-able, but not convient, and somewhat more strenous. Not here that often I am not doing full strokes, just doing some highly targeted initial work.

I find having both useful and use both, but admittedly only use the scrub if things are really bad (I use a very coarse jack the rest of the time). But still, although coarse jack can certainly do rough work, it still isn't the same as a scrub. I would suggest a lightweight #4 (like my record #4) would be much closer.

PK
 
bugbear":3dwi9ymy said:
I have a Record #5 whose sole is flat to 0.5 thou, and who's blade is sharpened straight across, and normally set for 2 thou shavings. Apparently that's a jack too :)

BugBear

Sure, why not? Or you could call it a smoother, panel, polishing plane, or jointer if you wish and I wouldn't argue. I think we can agree it isn't a scrub. :lol:
 
Roger Nixon":okltbrxx said:
bugbear":okltbrxx said:
I have a Record #5 whose sole is flat to 0.5 thou, and who's blade is sharpened straight across, and normally set for 2 thou shavings. Apparently that's a jack too :)

BugBear

Sure, why not? Or you could call it a smoother, panel, polishing plane, or jointer if you wish and I wouldn't argue. I think we can agree it isn't a scrub. :lol:
I just love all the nomenclature discussions...

So, if I had a Stanley 40/40 1/2 and ground the blade straight across, would it still be a scrub? :lol:

Mike
runnin' for his life...
 
MikeW":1yc86snu said:
So, if I had a Stanley 40/40 1/2 and ground the blade straight across, would it still be a scrub? :lol:
Nah. It'd be a paperweight... :lol:

Welcome to the forum, Ian. Glad I made that facetious remark then. :D

Cheers, Alf
 
With luck this weekend will see me butchering a poor old plane to turn her into the scrubber I know she is at heart. There's parts of a wooden jointer I'm making sitting on the bench so I may use that instead though at 22 inches it might be a bit long. With regards the blade I have 4 or 5 "blanks" courtesy of my local blacksmith one of which will become the scrub blade if I can work out how. Any tips or pointers on how to grind the initial camber and bevel? I have an old beaten up cheapie grider from a relatives basement, its nothing special but the wheels spin well enough and a pair of waterstones for the sharpening. For the camber and bevel I'm imagining a freehand "rounding" motion accross the grinder but the back needs flattening by more than the waterstones could politely be asked I think. Im not sure about using the side of the wheel it seems wrong but I can't think why other than it may deform the wheel.
Mike
 
mr":13fnoo23 said:
There's parts of a wooden jointer I'm making sitting on the bench so I may use that instead though at 22 inches it might be a bit long.

Well, one of the good things about woodies is that they are trivial make shorter :D

With regards the blade I have 4 or 5 "blanks" courtesy of my local blacksmith one of which will become the scrub blade if I can work out how. Any tips or pointers on how to grind the initial camber and bevel?

My method: Draw it on there, grind to the line more or less, and eyeball it to be fair.
 
Picking up on the dialogue between Alf and Midnight....For the wood Mike's working, surely he's got the right plane in his hand. But for my needs, Alf's solution works best. So I think they're both right.

The difference is in the wood. The roughsawn I am usually starting with is what we Murricans call 4/4 (four quarter) or 5/4 (five quarter), referring to quarters of an inch. Mike, what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying?

4/4 is usually 1" to 1-1/16" thick rough. 5/4 runs about 1-1/4" rough. After crosscutting to rough project length, the 4/4 planks will dress down to about 13/16", say, 20mm. The 5/4 will dress down to 1", say 25mm). The wood will usually be one of the soft or hard maple species, or cherry--almost always figured. These are quite soft woods in Derek's comparisons.

Whether 4/4 or 5/4, I'll be taking about 1/8" of thickness from each side to get to the face-jointed finished board. A longer plane with a little less camber turns out to be better in this situation, at least in my hands. My metal scrub hasn't been out of the drawer since I acquired a 15" wooden jack with a 5-1/2" radius camber to the blade. In fact, I am thinking about trying the olde English/British solution of a fore plane, as described in Moxon, ca. 1700--Moxon does not mention a scrub plane. Didn't the scrub plane came over from Germany to England in the 19th century.

What I like about the wooden jack is the weight, the length, and the adjustability. Weight--it's really kinda effortless. Length--you're pretty well down the road toward jointing the board by the time you're done with the jack. Adjustability--you can adjust the blade depth quite finely with hammer taps--this will result in very little tearout, even in highly figured wood. So you get the full thickness that the board has to offer.

Question: Has anyone tried doing the initial preparation of roughsawn lumber with a cambered foreplane (I believe 17-18" long) as per Moxon? If so, how did that compare with the alternatives?

Wiley
 
what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying?
They call it 2 inch ( though they keep ringing me with different quotes and then end the conversation by saying they'll go and have a look at their stock to see what they have. Have had three separate calls like that now).
Re the longer foreplane, Thats probably what Im going to try when I get a chance to put a camber on one of these blades. The one I have to hand is 17inches long, as I say it's probably going to be the first line of attack rather than going looking for a metal bodied scrub at this point in time. OF course I could just open up the mouth on the new Jack and have at it, closing the mouth as I go - nice idea probably wont work. :)
Mike
 
Mike, what does your mill designate the lumber you are buying?

much the same as yours Wilie.. either inch or inch-an-quarter... current boards are the latter... aiming for a finished thickness of inch if I can get it..

What I'm finding with the scrub is that the initial pass on the board works just fine, however, if I try a back-to-back pass without cutting back the worst of the furrows, subsequent stock removal is neglegable.. the plane skips over the tops of the previous furrows... working in tandem with a course jack gives fastest stock removal... once the jack's taking a full width (of the board) shaving I set the scrub aside... job's done... time to start flattening...
 
mr Mike.....From the beginning of this thread I thought your very best course was the plane you already had, with the cambered blade. If you haven't used a cambered blade before, I think you will be stunned at the efficiency of the way it slices through the hills and leaves the valleys alone. And it doesn't wear you out. Your board will start looking like a topo map from the channels, and you will know its precise condition from the surface cuts. And it won't wear you out (did I already mention that?).

Like midnight Mike was saying, once your first plane is not removing much wood (and instead cutting where it has already cut), that's the time to switch to your new jack. I used to do this procedure with a simple open-mouthed jack with a straight blade--you can do it, but it wears you out. Also the straight-bladed plane doesn't get as clean and deep a bite on the rolling terrain as the cambered blade--it's more erratic, for example,

the blade wants to pull the plane toward the side that's digging in first. In comparison, the narrower focus and skewed cutting action of the cambered blade allows it to dig in cleaner and deeper (but narrower) than the regular jack, and you get the feeling that all your energy is being transferred directly to the shaving, rather than being partly dissipated wrestling with the plane. Long story short: Your first instinct is right--start with the cambered blade plane, then go to your new jack to cut down the furrows left by the fore plane. The old guys really did know how to do this job.

Midnight Mike....how wide did you say that sycamore was? Was that tree felled in Scotland?

Wiley
 
Wiley, the wood I usually get has not been sawn or dried as carefully as the wood you describe. If it needed only 1/8" removed from each side, I would not use a scrub either.
Often the wood has a twist and will rock on the bench. The scrub is excellent for working down the high corners only until the board sits firmly on the bench. If there is a cup, the short sole excells at working cross grain where a long sole is of no use.
If there is a bow in the length, I place the bow up and shim under the board. I remove wood from the center by working cross grain or diagonally (working the board from "inside out" as you mentioned in a post on edge jointing) until the board is slightly hollow.
I almost never work along the grain with a scrub as the short sole will pretty much follow the hills and valleys of the board. As the board gets flatter I will start using longer planes with wider blades and less camber and start diagonally to with the grain.
When gluing up panels, I don't try to thickness boards individually since I don't have a thickness planer. I flatten the show face only and do the glue up then I flatten the other side as necessary. A scrub used diagonally or cross grain will quickly even out the underside.
 
Roger,

Interesting point you make about working at a diagonal or directly cross grain with the scrub. And also about using the scrub to take down the uneven offside of a panel. I will confess to doing that job with a lunchbox planer, after handflattening the appearance side.

I spoke too quickly when I said an 1/8" off each side--it's an _average_ of 1/8", which means that in the high corners, it'll be more like 3/16". With the wooden jack, you can adjust the blade depth as you go very quickly with hammertaps.

Do you try to deal with twisty boards in the cross-cutting? My batches of roughsawn will have enough well-behaved pieces for tops and case sides and other long pieces. But if the board has a lot of twist, I'm gonna throw in the towel right away, cross cut it at 2-foot or so intervals, and then resaw it to make drawer bottoms or dust panels. I figure that's the best yield from the wood, even if it has to wait for the next project. If I try to get rails and stiles from a twisty board, or a couple of top pieces, sure as little green apples, one of those boards is going to end up thin by the time it's straight.

Do you use both the 40 and the 40-1/2?

Wiley
 
Wiley... this one's average is around 23" give or take... has more fiddle back grain than I've ever seen in a board.. I've some others in the stack that are wider, some narrower.. but none so far look at the first sycamore board I worked.. finished panels were 29" wide..

They're all locally grown and milled.. these came from woods I grew up playing in...
 
So once again thanks to all for the input to this thread. As mentioned I've made a blade up from one of my blade blanks - Cambered freehand on a bench grinder and then sharpened (after a fashion on waterstones) The back is far from flat and the bevel looks to be approaching 45 degrees though I havent measured it. The blade then went into an old 17 inch woodie with a gaping and poor condition mouth. No cap iron / chip breaker just the woodie's own wedge. This is about as coarse as it comes really. But it works. I've attacked a piece of rough pine (it was all I had to hand) and taken out a lot of the rough and got it into a workable state. A first attempt but I will definitly perservere to improve results - anyway for those interested - a couple of pictures.

top.jpg

mouth.jpg
 
Looks good, Mike!
To be fair, knotty pine is NOT fun for practising on :lol: Those knots really mess you (and the blade setting) up!
Nice one,
Philly :D
 
Wiley, yes I try to cut pieces close to finish size before starting to flatten. One place I used a scrub intensively was in my workbench top. I crosscut the maple to approximate 8' lengths and ripped into 4 1/2" wide strips. The wood tended to bow after being ripped and I wound up turning several board feet into scrub shavings. Since the boards had to be face jointed getting those size boards very flat was challenging and my #40 and I got to be very good acquaintences. In hindsight I would have been much better off to have bought surfaced lumber and I will for any similar future projects.

On most projects, the scrub isn't needed and I start with a jack plane.

I had a #40 1/2 but I sold it. I prefer the little #40 to it or the LN & LV scrubs but that is just a personal preference
 
Roger, I'm gonna make a little confession to you, and I hope you don't tell anybody: I bought the whole slab top of my bench from Highland Hdwe--big brown truck brought it. So I hope you're feeling appropriately galootish.

Talking about galootish stuff, mr Mike did a super job with his new fore plane. Moxon would be proud. Blade camber looks great, and the shavings show a nice even double taper. Really gives me the hots for a fore plane.

Midnight mike...23" slab! fiddleback figure! I think I'm beginning to get the picture why you were motivated to buy all those high-end planes!

Wiley
 

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