Scroll saw issues

[whatknot]

re your question of what to look out for

Scroll saws fall into three groups for the most part

Sub £200 most are the same with different badges with a few slight differences, as mentioned previously

£200 to about £400 is the middle ground, some sub £200 are sold in this band so beware, they are the same saws but overpriced, then there are the Proxxon range, I haven't tried one personally but have seen enough to say I wouldn't particularly want one (as there are better saws for not much more) both saws in this price range are two speed, it would do but prefer variable speed

Proxxon DSH around £230
Proxxon DS 460 is just over £400

Then £400 plus up to £1500 or even more

My most used saw is an Axminster AWFS18 (now an AT460SS on Axminster) its a Hegnar clone and I find it does all I require of a scroll saw, virtually no vibration, quick tension release at the front, easy blade change of both types, easy maintenance, the current retail is about £550

The Hegnar equivalent of the Axminster AT460SS would be around £900

Then there are the Axminster AT406SS at approx £700, AT535SS at approx £750 and the AT762SS at approx £800

The main attribute of the above three is the table remains flat and the upper arm and motor tilts when doing angled cuts, the three prices reflect the depth of the table mainly, 16", 21" and 30" respectively
(the above are clones of Excalibur, King or Jet and a few other brand names)

Then there are Hegnars which many swear by, I have only ever had one, a second hand Multi cut 2, it was a single speed and vibrated like mad so sold it on

They start at about £500 and go into the thousands

There are of course others, DeWalt 788, Delta 40-694, Hawk etc, but these are mainly American and spares & repairs / warranty may be a problem in the UK

Bought new you will of course have instant depreciation but not as much as the cheap saws

But bought used you are likely to retain most if not all of the price paid if bought correctly, I would expect half retail or less, depending on your luck

Many thanks Whatnot, I rather suspected that may be the case. I so love scrolling now so I am considering upgrading. Do you have any suggestions of what to look for and indeed what to avoid? I will take a look at the post you men

 

[AES]

+1 for all that whatnot has said above. And please note that unless you are thinking of/are able to spend AT Least 500 quid and up, if you buy new at much below that price you're stuck with what are, at best pretty mediocre, machines.

So IF you want to go "up market" machine-wise and don't want to spend that 500 quid and up, you're going to be restricted to buying second hand. That requires some patience, and also the possibility that you MAY have to buy some spare parts if something's worn. OTOH, the up-market machines are generally more expensive and that's at least partly because they're made and assembled to higher quality standards (a caution here though - Hegners, still a vary popular brand, have spares prices which are VERY high, though it seems that most if not all Hegner spares are still available).

Which brings us back full circle really, and if you haven't done so already, I recommend you look at Post #20 by OldWood (above). he says his "cheapo" saw struggled with his Noah's Ark project, and I'm sure he's right. BUT he also says he's going to "struggle on" with that machine. And that's a perfectly valid personal decision.

Because be in no doubt, these cheapo machines WILL cut (just about anything, according to blade choice and technique). AND about the only difference between the cheapos and the up market machines is how much "hassle" you're prepared to put up with - hassle in blade changing, blade tensioning, blade choice, and general "convenience and pleasure of use" to name but some points.

My own starter machine (a Dremel Moto Shop - model now discontinued) suffered from all the above, PLUS you were limited to using ONLY Dremel-own blades (pinned, and roughly 2 inches shorter than standard), AND only single speed. My much later Einhell (model also now discontinued) did have a cast iron table and multi speed.

Compared to the tilting-head Excalibur/Pegas machine I have now, the differences are like night and day, but the fact is that I still produced at least "adequate" work on both the Dremel and the Einhell. The only real difference is that every time I use my Exi it's pure pleasure and no hassles at all.

In short then I'd say that if for whatever reason you don't want to be investing at least 500 quid (and possibly significantly more), you should either wait to find a good second hand machine, or do as Old Wood does above and accept the hassles of a not really very good machine - BUT a machine that will - in the end - do what you need it to.

BTW, if it helps any, I bought my Dremel Moto Shop in the mid 1980s. My Excali in 2010 (my 70th birthday present from my wife).

HTH

 

[Ukulele joe]

Hi Joe and welcome
I suspect that the Sheppach is no more than the standard identical low cost saw that appears under 'several hundred' different trade names - I can't remember the name on mine but it looks pretty similar to what I see if I google "sheppach scroll saw".

My major opus on this was a Noah's Ark using 19mm maple and the difficulty I had with that suggested to me that I was at the top end of its working thickness range, so that would be my first input, particularly since then I have always used thinner timber and rarely broken a blade.

Does your pinless tool holder look like this picture - I replaced the Allen head set screw on one side with a thumbscrew is to allow easier tool changing. I can't see looking at this what could fracture. Maybe you could give us a bit more information on that.

Yes we would all like to be able to justify and afford a better saw, but frankly this saw works adequately well for me and until I have the opportunity to try something better and find out what I am missing I will stick with it.
Rob
[/QQU

Hi Joe and welcome
I suspect that the Sheppach is no more than the standard identical low cost saw that appears under 'several hundred' different trade names - I can't remember the name on mine but it looks pretty similar to what I see if I google "sheppach scroll saw".

My major opus on this was a Noah's Ark using 19mm maple and the difficulty I had with that suggested to me that I was at the top end of its working thickness range, so that would be my first input, particularly since then I have always used thinner timber and rarely broken a blade.

Does your pinless tool holder look like this picture - I replaced the Allen head set screw on one side with a thumbscrew is to allow easier tool changing. I can't see looking at this what could fracture. Maybe you could give us a bit more information on that.

Yes we would all like to be able to justify and afford a better saw, but frankly this saw works adequately well for me and until I have the opportunity to try something better and find out what I am missing I will stick with it.
Rob

Hi Old wood, thanks for your input. I have taken a shot of my breakages and at the bottom how the clamp should look. The one you show is what I was looking for. I saw a YouTube video of that particular one where the owner maintained that he was changing to this one as yours for some reason slipped off the bottom support. But now my experience with the Axminster ones has left me complexed. If the Olson one is not suitable then I shall be looking for a different scroll saw (because I'm hooked!). Now my challenge is to attach my pic!

 

[Ukulele joe]

+1 for all that whatnot has said above. And please note that unless you are thinking of/are able to spend AT Least 500 quid and up, if you buy new at much below that price you're stuck with what are, at best pretty mediocre, machines.

So IF you want to go "up market" machine-wise and don't want to spend that 500 quid and up, you're going to be restricted to buying second hand. That requires some patience, and also the possibility that you MAY have to buy some spare parts if something's worn. OTOH, the up-market machines are generally more expensive and that's at least partly because they're made and assembled to higher quality standards (a caution here though - Hegners, still a vary popular brand, have spares prices which are VERY high, though it seems that most if not all Hegner spares are still available).

Which brings us back full circle really, and if you haven't done so already, I recommend you look at Post #20 by OldWood (above). he says his "cheapo" saw struggled with his Noah's Ark project, and I'm sure he's right. BUT he also says he's going to "struggle on" with that machine. And that's a perfectly valid personal decision.

Because be in no doubt, these cheapo machines WILL cut (just about anything, according to blade choice and technique). AND about the only difference between the cheapos and the up market machines is how much "hassle" you're prepared to put up with - hassle in blade changing, blade tensioning, blade choice, and general "convenience and pleasure of use" to name but some points.

My own starter machine (a Dremel Moto Shop - model now discontinued) suffered from all the above, PLUS you were limited to using ONLY Dremel-own blades (pinned, and roughly 2 inches shorter than standard), AND only single speed. My much later Einhell (model also now discontinued) did have a cast iron table and multi speed.

Compared to the tilting-head Excalibur/Pegas machine I have now, the differences are like night and day, but the fact is that I still produced at least "adequate" work on both the Dremel and the Einhell. The only real difference is that every time I use my Exi it's pure pleasure and no hassles at all.

In short then I'd say that if for whatever reason you don't want to be investing at least 500 quid (and possibly significantly more), you should either wait to find a good second hand machine, or do as Old Wood does above and accept the hassles of a not really very good machine - BUT a machine that will - in the end - do what you need it to.

BTW, if it helps any, I bought my Dremel Moto Shop in the mid 1980s. My Excali in 2010 (my 70th birthday present from my wife).

HTH

Thanks AES, wise words and I'm in your age bracket. I don't mind hassle and faff to an extent, sometimes it is part of the feeling of solving problems without throwing the item up the garden in temper! That feeling of achievement is rather like when you finish a project and your friends and loved ones are amazed at what you have made. I'm so enjoying scrolling now and am looking at several different projects. Christmas puzzle figures, basket scrolling, clockworks, and others like 3D scrolling.Many thanks.........Joe

 

[whatknot]

Its odd as the hanger type blade clamps are so awkward to use, that is the reason most go for the Axminster conversion clamps that you say you are having a problem with

The hanger type were always listed under Draper brand on Amazon but can't seem to find them now

Personally I wouldn't waste my money on them

Although they are usually supplied with the low end saws I can't find a supplier at present, perhaps someone else might

By hanger type I mean as per the attachment

 

[loftyhermes]

I seem to think a member here (can't remember who) a while ago suggesting cutting those kind of clamps where I've marked the red line, to make it easier to use.

 

[Stuart1953]

Hi Joe and welcome
I suspect that the Sheppach is no more than the standard identical low cost saw that appears under 'several hundred' different trade names - I can't remember the name on mine but it looks pretty similar to what I see if I google "sheppach scroll saw".

My major opus on this was a Noah's Ark using 19mm maple and the difficulty I had with that suggested to me that I was at the top end of its working thickness range, so that would be my first input, particularly since then I have always used thinner timber and rarely broken a blade.

Does your pinless tool holder look like this picture - I replaced the Allen head set screw on one side with a thumbscrew is to allow easier tool changing. I can't see looking at this what could fracture. Maybe you could give us a bit more information on that.

Yes we would all like to be able to justify and afford a better saw, but frankly this saw works adequately well for me and until I have the opportunity to try something better and find out what I am missing I will stick with it.
Rob

I have done exactly the same with mine and it works a treat. Far better than fiddling around with the Allen key every time you want to make an internal cut.

 

[Ukulele joe]

I seem to think a member here (can't remember who) a while ago suggesting cutting those kind of clamps where I've marked the red line, to make it easier to use.

I can see what you mean, so the screw to fix to the machine will hold it steady and the quarter of the clamp, after cutting it, just holds the blade as tight as necessary but does not flex the "wishbone" shape of the clamp. I'm already committed to trying the Olson kit now I have ordered it. Many thanks Hermes. On another subject, where do you folks acquire your stock? Up to now I have scavenged old furniture for the quality timbers. Being a retired furniture fitter I still have a stock of hardwood. I've even planed down solid maple cornice and have asked friends if they are discarding any old furniture items. At the rate I'm going I'll soon run out!

 

[Droogs]

you could try taking a small file to the grub screws and adjust the shape. this may stop the stresses being concentrated in the one place and snapping the blade.

 

[Ukulele joe]

you could try taking a small file to the grub screws and adjust the shape. this may stop the stresses being concentrated in the one place and snapping the blade.

you could try taking a small file to the grub screws and adjust the shape. this may stop the stresses being concentrated in the one place and snapping the blade.

Thank you Droogs, it isn't the blade breaking but the clamp holding the blade. If the gap was wider it would fracture even sooner. I am investing in an Olson kit and if that won't work I'll be changing my scroll saw. Best wishes.....Joe

 

[OldWood]

Joe - thanks for starting this thread. I'm sure this topic has been thrashed around on UKW more than once, but having not been active for quite a while this has been informative.

I sympathise with your clamp problem - having look at the Axminster webpage, my reaction without being a metalurgist is that stressing a casting as this is just leading to failure.

I dialled up hook type blade clamps and found this, but I suspect this is machine dependent, and again maybe because this is just one of the hassles of cheaper machines I can live with them.

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/draper...QTDKW2ixquJ0KQBSrhVmBzcud2JXnukAaAoz1EALw_wcB
I very much liked AES's input as it clearly was from a user who had been through the phases and expressed well the gains of the upper level machines. Another element I didn't mention in my earlier post is that one way of making the better machines less vibration sensitive is to increase their weight such that they almost have to become a fixture. My workshop can't tolerate that and the scrollsaw lives on a back shelf and has to lifted down to the main bench for use.

So it is horses for courses, but with the bonus that unlike some power tools, the entry level scroll saws are, if we for a moment forget about these horrible clamps, pretty effective and a good place to start and continue on an occasional use basis.

Joe - keep us posted please on the clamps you are going for.

 

[Ukulele joe]

Joe - thanks for starting this thread. I'm sure this topic has been thrashed around on UKW more than once, but having not been active for quite a while this has been informative.

I sympathise with your clamp problem - having look at the Axminster webpage, my reaction without being a metalurgist is that stressing a casting as this is just leading to failure.

I dialled up hook type blade clamps and found this, but I suspect this is machine dependent, and again maybe because this is just one of the hassles of cheaper machines I can live with them.

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/draper...QTDKW2ixquJ0KQBSrhVmBzcud2JXnukAaAoz1EALw_wcB
I very much liked AES's input as it clearly was from a user who had been through the phases and expressed well the gains of the upper level machines. Another element I didn't mention in my earlier post is that one way of making the better machines less vibration sensitive is to increase their weight such that they almost have to become a fixture. My workshop can't tolerate that and the scrollsaw lives on a back shelf and has to lifted down to the main bench for use.

So it is horses for courses, but with the bonus that unlike some power tools, the entry level scroll saws are, if we for a moment forget about these horrible clamps, pretty effective and a good place to start and continue on an occasional use basis.

Joe - keep us posted please on the clamps you are going for.

Many thanks to all. If the Olson's work, then I'm happy but I've been watching a bid for the Excalibur with, what looks like easy access to blade change and tilts from the head both ways, and was wondering what you all think of this make?

 

[AES]

Personally Joe, I swear by my Excalibur 21. It's over 5 years old now, has never given me a moment's problem and it's always a real pleasure to use - to the extent that when I'm on the way past the Excali to do something entirely different I just HAVE TO stop and have a quick buzz on that!

And personally, I find the tilting head an absolute boon - I use it more often than I thought I would, and it's SO much better than a tilting table.

BUT - yup, there's a but. Excaliburs are made under licence in Taiwan by a Canadian company called General International. They make lots of other machinery too, and seem to have a high reputation. Certainly the Excalibur Scroll Saws are of excellent design, 1st class materials and build quality. They're imported into Europe under the name "Excalibur" or "Pegas" and recently they seem to have labelling which uses both names (like mine).

None of these machines are sold direct to the public AFAIK, and until a couple of years back Axminster Tools were the UK distributor for these Excalibur/Pegas Scroll Saws.

BUT (and here it is at last) in recent years Axminster have stopped selling the Excalibur/Pegas Scroll Saws and replaced them with a machine which externally looks very similar - if not identical - apart from the colour and having Axminsters own Catalogue Number on it. As said, those new Axi machines do look identical but there have been quite a few reports from members here about machine failures - to the extent that at least 2 members here have had their Axi machines replaced under Warranty, and several have reported being unsatisfied.

That therefore suggests (repeat suggests, I cannot confirm) that although they look identical externally, a certain amount of "internal cheapening" has gone on - to the extent that machines have had to be replaced.

So in short, in your shoes Joe, I would jump at the chance of buying a S/H Excalibur/Pegas - IF it has that badge/s on it, and IF it's NOT grey and has NOT got Axminster's own "Professional Range" and Catalogue Numbering on it.

BTW, Excalibur Scroll Saws come in 3 sizes, 16 inch, 21 inch, and 30 inch That applies to ALL of the above, and refers to the throat dimension. As you'd image, the 16's are the "cheapest", 30's the most expensive.

HTH & Good Luck with your bid - just to give you a rough guide, I paid close to 700 Euros for a brand new Pegas/Excalibur 21 in about May 2015 (NOT in 2010 as I wrote by mistake in a different recent post). Mine came from the German dealer Dictum Tools in Munich (highly recommended, usual disclaimers) - just in case your bid doesn't win.

 

[Droogs]

+1 for AEs's post, I have an Excalibur EX30 and you can have it, to paraphrase a certain Mr Heston, from my cold dead hands and until then keep your hands off my EX30 you damn dirty apes lol

 

[Ukulele joe]

Personally Joe, I swear by my Excalibur 21. It's over 5 years old now, has never given me a moment's problem and it's always a real pleasure to use - to the extent that when I'm on the way past the Excali to do something entirely different I just HAVE TO stop and have a quick buzz on that!

And personally, I find the tilting head an absolute boon - I use it more often than I thought I would, and it's SO much better than a tilting table.

BUT - yup, there's a but. Excaliburs are made under licence in Taiwan by a Canadian company called General International. They make lots of other machinery too, and seem to have a high reputation. Certainly the Excalibur Scroll Saws are of excellent design, 1st class materials and build quality. They're imported into Europe under the name "Excalibur" or "Pegas" and recently they seem to have labelling which uses both names (like mine).

None of these machines are sold direct to the public AFAIK, and until a couple of years back Axminster Tools were the UK distributor for these Excalibur/Pegas Scroll Saws.

BUT (and here it is at last) in recent years Axminster have stopped selling the Excalibur/Pegas Scroll Saws and replaced them with a machine which externally looks very similar - if not identical - apart from the colour and having Axminsters own Catalogue Number on it. As said, those new Axi machines do look identical but there have been quite a few reports from members here about machine failures - to the extent that at least 2 members here have had their Axi machines replaced under Warranty, and several have reported being unsatisfied.

That therefore suggests (repeat suggests, I cannot confirm) that although they look identical externally, a certain amount of "internal cheapening" has gone on - to the extent that machines have had to be replaced.

So in short, in your shoes Joe, I would jump at the chance of buying a S/H Excalibur/Pegas - IF it has that badge/s on it, and IF it's NOT grey and has NOT got Axminster's own "Professional Range" and Catalogue Numbering on it.

BTW, Excalibur Scroll Saws come in 3 sizes, 16 inch, 21 inch, and 30 inch That applies to ALL of the above, and refers to the throat dimension. As you'd image, the 16's are the "cheapest", 30's the most expensive.

HTH & Good Luck with your bid - just to give you a rough guide, I paid close to 700 Euros for a brand new Pegas/Excalibur 21 in about May 2015 (NOT in 2010 as I wrote by mistake in a different recent post). Mine came from the German dealer Dictum Tools in Munich (highly recommended, usual disclaimers) - just in case your bid doesn't win.

Many thanks AES, I watch the YouTube items from USA, Steve good and another with Hans Meyer and notice they use either De Walt or the Excalibur machines and when I see how quickly they change blades or release for drill holes, I know I need to sort myself out. I'm just painting up some of my puzzles for family at Christmas. Best wishes......Joe

 

[AES]

Yeah, both De Walt and Delta Scroll Saws seem to have a very good reputation too, as you say, mainly in the USA, and one member here (I THINK - not sure - that it's Lofty Hermes) has two Delta saws which he swears by. But AFAIK, neither De Walt nor Delta Scroll Saws have been imported into UK for some time. I therefore assume that S/H machines - and spares - will be difficult to find.

 

[AES]

+1 for AEs's post, I have an Excalibur EX30 and you can have it, to paraphrase a certain Mr Heston, from my cold dead hands and until then keep your hands off my EX30 you damn dirty apes lol

You like it then Droogs!!!!!!!!

 

[whatknot]

(I wrote this yesterday after the post re sawing the Axminster clamp in half, but today find its still here unsent)

That is one possible solution although am unsure how useful it would be in practice with half the clamp floating as it were

But I believe the problem of fracturing is caused by bolting down the replacement clamp directly onto the arm, it should be fitted with a plate on top (or the original bracket inverted) as the plate allows the clamp to move without as much stress

Good luck with the Olson kit it gets mixed reviews

As to where I get stock, like you I am an avid scavenger, I look out for skips & building work and one very useful source is a double glazing company not so far from me who put a sign out for free firewood, they often replace quite old timbers as people modernise, quite a bit is only good for the fire but every now and then there are some great finds, I also keep an eye on the freecycle type sites, I picked up a load of oak kitchen doors recently, lots to use from them

If you have charity shops close by, they are often donated furniture that they cannot sell and are happy to get rid of it

I can see what you mean, so the screw to fix to the machine will hold it steady and the quarter of the clamp, after cutting it, just holds the blade as tight as necessary but does not flex the "wishbone" shape of the clamp. I'm already committed to trying the Olson kit now I have ordered it. Many thanks Hermes. On another subject, where do you folks acquire your stock? Up to now I have scavenged old furniture for the quality timbers. Being a retired furniture fitter I still have a stock of hardwood. I've even planed down solid maple cornice and have asked friends if they are discarding any old furniture items. At the rate I'm going I'll soon run out!

 

[Ukulele joe]

(I wrote this yesterday after the post re sawing the Axminster clamp in half, but today find its still here unsent)

That is one possible solution although am unsure how useful it would be in practice with half the clamp floating as it were

But I believe the problem of fracturing is caused by bolting down the replacement clamp directly onto the arm, it should be fitted with a plate on top (or the original bracket inverted) as the plate allows the clamp to move without as much stress

Good luck with the Olson kit it gets mixed reviews

As to where I get stock, like you I am an avid scavenger, I look out for skips & building work and one very useful source is a double glazing company not so far from me who put a sign out for free firewood, they often replace quite old timbers as people modernise, quite a bit is only good for the fire but every now and then there are some great finds, I also keep an eye on the freecycle type sites, I picked up a load of oak kitchen doors recently, lots to use from them

If you have charity shops close by, they are often donated furniture that they cannot sell and are happy to get rid of it

Cheers Whatnot, do you think a penny washer would work?

 

[whatknot]

I do not see why not as long as it fits between the ridges either side I think it would serve the same function

Cheers Whatnot, do you think a penny washer would work?