Scribing tenons

[Tim Nott]

I have a lot of doors (house) and windows to make, which call for moulded stiles and rails and scribed tenons. About 150 tenons, not all the same.
In an ideal world I'd get hold of a s/h tenoner, eg a Sedgwick or Multico, but such things don't seem to exist in this part of the world (France).
I've got a Robland combi, so no problem moulding, but changing the cutters over to scribe is a pita and not very accurate.
For instance six doors have four vertical glazing bars, so what I did on the prototype was mould and mortise the stiles, tenon and cope the top and bottom rails, mould and mortise the top and bottom rails, tenon and cope the glazing bars, then put the whole shebang together and find it doesn't fit too well. Like this http://www.timnott.co.uk/gallery/archi/target4.html
I don't think I can cope (HA!) with doing this for six more doors, plus a load of other, single paned doors and windows.
Any ideas? Cutting the basic tenons isn't too bad with a jig on the T/s, but it's the scribing that's the devil.
This is the profile I need to achieve on the tenons

The radii are around 8mm, as are the flat bits each side of the tenon
Sticking it together square and then routing the profile is not an option, nor is applying the mouldings as separate pieces.
I'm wondering whether the router could be used,[/img]

 

[mark w]

Tim,
Perhaps you could mitre the moulded parts of rail and stile, I did this on an internal door and it worked well. make a mitre box to fit over rail and stile for paring with a chisel, this will aid accuracy and speed up the job.
Some nice work you`ve done Tim.

Kind regards, Mark W

 

[FatFreddysCat]

This is one of those instances where you do need the appropriate tooling for the spindle moulder, so if you have so many to do why not bite the bullet and buy the tooling? Trying the scribes with a router table will test your patience no end.

It is possible to cut the joints one side with one cutter and then the other side with a second cutter, but, and this is a big but, you will need to dimension extra stock to allow you to set-up the tooling every time you change cutter. You will also have to batch all your operations so that you do all "same" cuts in one batch. Continually trying to repaet a setting is a sure fire way to madness. Finally, if your spindle won't accommodate a stub arbor for tenoning or larger diameter tooling why not consider loose tenon joinery where the rails and stiles both have loose tenons and a close-fitting hardwood stub tenon to join them? I'd avoid mitres as they always but always open up over time, even if you use mitre mate

 

[Mattty]

I can't offer any advice other than what has already been said. I would love to see/read about the piece in your avatar tho

 

[Tierney]

sorry no advice; but, lovely stuff on your website.

David

 

[PAC1]

A trick we used to use when we needed to do an unusual scribe was to simply cut the shoulders on the tennon square at the longest point of the shoulder and then cut a mitre on the moulded part of the rail. This gives you the shape of the scribe. you can then chop by hand a scribe about 6mm longer than the depth of the mould. The stiles can be made with the mould on then and then cut off the moulding in the area of the tennon less the thickness of the moulding to create a square shoulder. Fit together and you cannot tell it has not been fully scribed.

 

[Tim Nott]

Many thanks all.
I think mitring the joints as mark w suggests - 20 pairs per door - would drive me mad, and as FatFreddysCat (wait till he puts on his stereo headphones) remarks they tend to open.
I have got the tooling for the spindle moulder but found - just doing the one that as FFC said 'Continually trying to repaet a setting is a sure fire way to madness. '
I'm still thinking of the router with the table or a jig for the coping, having cut the basic tenons, but this may be a non starter, as I modified the scriber knives on the spindle, which you can't do with a router cutter, and the shape on the right of my picture doesn't seem to exist as a router cutter.
So I may well be descending on your fair country in search of a s/h sedgwick or multico. Does anyone here use a multico, by the way? Would I be able to do that tenon with just two cutterheads?

Finally, thanks to Matty and Tierney for the kind words. The avatar piece is one of a pair - see http://www.timnott.co.uk/gallery/freerange/target3.html
They were inspired by a tall oak arts&crafts style plant stand that - many years ago - a neighbour was throwing out. It looked like uit had been made out of green timber as the top was warped and the legs went in various non-parallel directions. I rescued it, still have it and love it.

 

[mark w]

The moulded section of rails and stiles I mitred have not opened, I used Cascamite to glue tenons together, I would not contemplate Mitre Mate on anything but kitchen pelmet and cornice. True though it would drive you mad with that amount of joints. I have also used the method Pac1 suggests, this also worked well but again it is very time consuming.

Kind regards, Mark w

 

[FatFreddysCat]

Mark

Maybe it's a trade thing, but if I were to do anything like that with mitres for a trade customer it would be instantly rejected. Joinery trade practice over many years dictates the use of scribes because when the wood moves the resulting gap is much less noticeable. using glue on it slows down mitre joints opening, but it can never stop it from happening.

 

[mark w]

Fat Freddy,
I agree with you scribing is preferable, indeed if I had a batch of doors to make I would make sure I had the correct tooling to do the job.
What I thought we were talking about here is another approach apart from scribing which is what I did on a one off door. Scribes can also come apart over time, if your stiles shrink in width this could lead to a gap not only in the corner of the scribe, but down through the whole joint, it is debatable which looks worse. Nothing is 100%.
Just to be clear, scribing is best practice.
Kind regards, Mark W

 

[RogerS]

Are you making each door - one at a time? that used to be my approach but now I grit my teeth and plan the work so that I run as much through for each setting as I can..for all the doors at the same time. Boring in the extreme but minimises setting errors. You do make excess stock to act as setting guides, don't you?

 

[Tim Nott]

Indeed Rogers - I'd do as much as possible in batches, with plenty of spare stock
Like PAC's scribing 'cheat' have done something similar on skirtings and cornices

 

[katellwood]

Hi

I have never had a problem with mitres however they can be time consuming

Scibes done by hand will require at least a mitre cut on the rail to obtain the profile of the scribe then accurate scribing with suitable gouges etc

plus you will still need to remove a large proportion of material from the shoulder line adjacent to the mortice if you do not intend to scribe the full width of the rail

machine scribing on a spindle will usually need you to be able to cut over the block, purchase a suitable cutter to match the original moulding, shoulder line accuracy is a must to ensure both shoulder lines fit precisely. I would also say that fitting the shoulder lines for each side of the tenon may be restricted

I have attached some pics of examples of my mitring which have never opened up even on a 9" middle rail

 

[mark w]

Katellwood,
Nice to see someone else who has not had a problem with mitres and it seems as though you have done far more than I have.
Nice work by the way.

Kind regards, Mark w

 

[stokesrob]

the reason we scribe things like tenons and even skirting bord is becuse of somthing known as differential srinkage. timber will sink at differnt rates depending on size of the timer... a miter at its longest piont is thiner than at the start of the miter so natrally it will srink more where there is more timber. this gives the allusion that the miter has opend up. no matter what glue you use this will almos always happen.

a bit of tech for you... you can thank my tutor from way back when i was surving my time as an apprenice for this bit of info ha ha .....


oh ye i cant spell...... i know

 

[Chrispy]

Tim
Yes a Multico would do what you want
When I do this kind of job I first chop all the mortices, then cut all tenons to fit, then rebate and finally run all the moulding to fit the scribing. it means a lot of measuring etc. but works for me. working this way any break out from the scribing is machined away when moulding.

 

[Jacob]

Hi

I have never had a problem with mitres however they can be time consuming

Scibes done by hand will require at least a mitre cut on the rail to obtain the profile of the scribe then accurate scribing with suitable gouges etc

plus you will still need to remove a large proportion of material from the shoulder line adjacent to the mortice if you do not intend to scribe the full width of the rail

machine scribing on a spindle will usually need you to be able to cut over the block, purchase a suitable cutter to match the original moulding, shoulder line accuracy is a must to ensure both shoulder lines fit precisely. I would also say that fitting the shoulder lines for each side of the tenon may be restricted
.........

I agree mitres shouldn't be a problem.
Even better is the trad scribe for which you need an "out cannel" scribing gouge - just the one size as long as it has same or smaller radius as the moulding.
Not sure what katellwood is on about "scribing the full width of the rail". That's not how it's done by hand.
It's much like katellwood's mitre below except the moulding on the rail is housed in a little scribe nicked out of the moulding on the stile. It doesn't need to go all the way - you can mitre the rail moulding roughly at a bit over 45º and scribe the other so that the the rail moulding will just tuck in. Difficult to describe but easy to do.

 

[kirkpoore1]

Interesting revival of an old thread. That slice of wood shows the classic coped tenon profile. And since everything is easy with the right tool, here's the right tool:

A 5 head tenoner, which, when set up properly, will cut that profile in one pass.

Kirk

 

[katellwood]

Not sure what katellwood is on about "scribing the full width of the rail". That's not how it's done by hand.

Jacob

I was refering to machine cut scribes and shoulders as opposed to hand cut

You may also be interested in this, however a bespoke item and would need to be matched with a moulding plane

Used for glazing bars after the mould has been cut and removes the need to cut mitres prior to scribing to get the shape

 

[Bradshaw Joinery]

buy a tenoner, even travel if you cant find one local.. you wont regret the accuracy it brings to tennons, letalone the handiness of fitting scribe cutters. make sure it has euro blocks so youdont have to switch between blocks to go from scribes to rebate...