Screws in guitar body

[wooster]

Hi first time poster here.

I’m a complete no-hoper with DIY and woodwork but need some advice.

I have a guitar with a Mahogany body and I want to change the metal buttons to which the strap attaches. I have a new set but one of the screws ( which are part of the button unit and screw in with an Allen key and so can’t be changed ) is a little bit larger than the old ones that came out so it’s going to take a bit of firm screwing to get them in. It isn’t impossible by any means but I’m worried the force might split the wood of the body. I am wondering if this means I need to drill a larger hole or whether I can just screw them in without fear.

I watched this video and the guy obviously had a bit of a struggle getting one of them in. At the least, it illustrates my problem.

Here it is



What would your advice be please?

Thank you for your help

 

[TheTiddles]

You want to drill a hole that is the size of the shank of the screw (the solid bit in the middle), but smaller than the threads, so they bite into the wood, but the shank doesn’t act as a wedge to split the wood apart. If it looks too small, open it up

Aidan

 

[thetyreman]

If it does go wrong you can always just put cocktail sticks in or a dowel and start again, you won't split the wood unless it's dramatically wider than the original screw, best to measure the actual screw shank with digital caliper, measuring only the shaft without the thread and pre-drill it to depth, then drive it in with some wax.

 

[wooster]

Thank you both for your help. I actually do have a digital caliper so I will measure both the screw I take out and the screw I'm putting in and see how they compare. If I post these measurements on here maybe you could tell me whether it would be safe to apply some pressure? The product blurb says it should fit Gibson guitars ( which mine is ) so maybe it really will just need some firm screwing

 

[wooster]

All right. I had a look at both these screws and attach a picture. The black one is the one I want to put in and the silver one is the one currently in place. I measured the black one as 4mm and the old one at 3.1mm. I also noticed the black one has quite a bit more penetration from the stud than the silver one and I wondered if this alone might mean a bit of drilling BUT I also noticed the silver one was much blunter at the point and that if I drilled I might make the black one too loose at the point? I also noticed that black one is much more defined ( drill - like ) and wondered if I took it easy and went in and out a bit blowing sawdust etc out as I went if I would get away without drilling at all.

So would the 1mm difference be significant and would the pointy end of the new black screw do the drilling for me if I took it easy?

Mind you, I'm cautious as the important thing is that I don't want to damage the guitar body which as I say is pretty expensive.

Here's a picture if it helps

Thank you

 

[thetyreman]

hi woodster, just be aware not to drill the hole too big, make sure it's slightly undersize and about 80% of the screw depth and you should be fine, if you feel nervous about it do a practise on some scraps of wood if you have any first, another tip is use masking tape around the hole to help guarantee it doesn't blow out when you drill the new hole.

 

[wooster]

Thanks thetyreman. I guess you're saying I can't escape the drilling.

I'm going to assume that since the screw is 4mm I could use a 3mm bit and I will drill down to the part of the screw where it begins to taper to a point. I'm assuming that it will find it's own way after that due to the sharp point.

Thanks for the tip re the spare bit of wood. I will try that first.

 

[wooster]

Hold on. I just found this

https://handycrowd.com/screws-explained-gauge-size-pilot-holes-and-wall-plugs/
Which suggest a 2.5mm bit is the right size for a 4mm hole. Mind you, it also says hardwoods might need bigger holes and I'm going into Mahogany which I'm guessing is a hard wood. So I'm wondering how much difference there actually is between 2.5mm and the size of the hole already there. Do you reckon I need to drill much bigger than 2.5mm and would my idea of around 3mm be good?

Sorry, I feel I'm asking a lot of stupid questions here and imagine you experienced woodworkers must be rolling your eyes but I appreciate your patience.

 

[AJB Temple]

You are overthinking this big time.

Is it a solid body, semi or hollow acoustic? If the former then you can drill or not but if the body is a Gibson solid mahogany one then you will never split it with that little screw.

If it is an acoustic there is a reinforcing strip at the back (on the inside) and you just need to drill out the hole slightly. Very unlikely to do any harm - I've repaired scores of these. It's a two minute job.

If it is a semi, then there are lots of designs internally but adopt the same approach as for acoustic - drill to size of shaft of screw and pop the new screw in. Don't ever tighten. Don't fiddle with it - you want the threads to lock in nicely.

If a fitting has an Allen bolt, then it is designed to be taken apart. Post close up photo.

 

[wooster]

Hi
Mits a solid body les Paul. It has modern weight relief so chunks of it have been chiselled out though I’m not sure where, but even so in the saner part of my mind I realise I’m making a big deal here. I was initially sort of inclined to drill a little for safety. However looking on sole of the guitar forums it seems a number of folk have just screwed it in with no obviously bad results.

As you are used to guitars, do you feel I should just screw it and not worry? Or if drilling for the 4mm screw, would a 3mm bit do the trick?

i used to have a tech do all this stuff for me but he’s retired now and in the pandemic it’s hard to get work done here hence I’m giving it a go myself.

 

[Benchwayze]

I have a Gibson or two. I always get a luthier to mess with mine; because they ARE Gibson's. The job you are requiring could probably be done while you wait. Alternatively leave in the old button and put the new one somewhere on the shoulder of the bout. Like the Epiphone Joe Pass model.
If this is the tailplece button then remember it also helps secure the tailpiece, and I believe you buy a special button unless the button is actually part of the tailpiece. Like my Hofner President.

John

 

[BillK]

If this is a mahogany body the Schaller screws should go in no problem. I've put lots in and never had to do anything special, though with harder woods you do want a pilot drilled. As per the pic they are longer and slightly wider than typical screws, but also hardened and much better quality.
You can wipe some soap or candle wax on the threads to help them go in. I scrape a candle along the threads and melt it with a quick waft from a cig lighter.
If it does start to fight then back out rather than force it, but mahogany won't normally be a problem.

Re the vid I'd say the tail-end one went in a bit too easily for my liking, the upper bout one was what it should be like.

If you're anywhere near Cambridge you'd be welcome to come over and I'll do them. I'm a full-time guitar builder and normally here all day, all but closed for Xmas now bar one customer next week, but this will take 5 mins and no charge.

Just make sure the strap part is done up really well, that can come loose otherwise. And if they're copies btw I wouldn't use them, get the proper thing from a proper shop so they're not fakes.

 

[thetyreman]

where are you based wooster? I'll also gladly do it for free, if you are anywhere near stockport then let me know.

 

[BillK]

PS the other option is the good old Grolsch washer on the std buttons. You can buy little packs for not much money

 

[wooster]

Hi folks. I'm really sorry for the late replies to your posts. I'm afraid I've not been around much over the Christmas period and then I forgot to bookmark this site and couldn't find it. Doh!

@BillK and @thetyreman, you guys are really generous and kind. Thank you for offering. I'm not near you unfortunately but I am really grateful for your kindness. I solved the problem by returning the guitar as I wasn't getting on with the neck profile. I used to have a trad Les Paul with a thicker neck and this one had a modern slimmer 60s profile which didn't suit me. Ah well. I did consider mixing and matching Fender screws with Schaller. The former are smaller and would probably fit the neck button quite well.

Mind you if the neck button was about right in the video maybe the Schallers would have been all right?

I've a few guitars of various makes and models and I'm likely to fit these strap buttons so I might invest in a hand operated drill thing just for that. Something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Housolutio...781746&sprefix=wood+hand+drill,aps,158&sr=8-9
I used to take all mine to a local luthier but he's retired now and with Covid I'm not all the keen to wander around looking for someone new at the moment so I'm trying to get a bit more clued up. I'm trying to get handy with woodwork and a bit of wiring too. How well it will go, who knows?

Anyway, than, you all again and a happy New Year to everyone.

PS I've now bookmarked this site