Scrap Diesel cars

[Jacob]

We were actively encouraged top buy diesel because it was "better for the environment" which it now apparently isn't ....b

It was "better for the environment" because of higher mpg, reliability, and being lead free. The pollution issue now overrides this.
It's not that experts change their minds just to annoy Telegraph readers (entertaining though that is :lol: ), it's about ongoing research and development coming up with new information.
It takes a lot of study, over a long time period, to satisfactorily prove many of these things. And new developments change the picture - electric vehicles, sustainable energy sources etc.

 

[bugbear]

I seem to remember a radio article saying the guy (American, Thomas Midgley) who invented the idea of using lead tetraethyl as an anti- knock additive also invented the use of Chloro Fluoro Carbon compounds as a refrigerant in domestic and industrial freezers to replace the use of inflammable gases. So according to this radio article, just one guy was responsible for two of the greatest pollutants of the 20th century.

K

Yes - written about in some detail (and rather wittily) in A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson.

BugBear

 

[custard]

So if you're buying a new car today should you choose petrol or diesel? If a diesel scrappage scheme was introduced (the "carrot"), surely it would be accompanied by the "stick", a material hike in diesel duty?

 

[woodpig]

So if you're buying a new car today should you choose petrol or diesel? If a diesel scrappage scheme was introduced (the "carrot"), surely it would be accompanied by the "stick", a material hike in diesel duty?

Diesel sales are declining thankfully.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38880019

 

[Keithie]

So if you're buying a new car today should you choose petrol or diesel? If a diesel scrappage scheme was introduced (the "carrot"), surely it would be accompanied by the "stick", a material hike in diesel duty?

If it's a car then I guess you 'should' choose electric or hybrid.

 

[Lons]

We were actively encouraged top buy diesel because it was "better for the environment" which it now apparently isn't ....b

It was "better for the environment" because of higher mpg, reliability, and being lead free. The pollution issue now overrides this.
It's not that experts change their minds just to annoy Telegraph readers (entertaining though that is :lol: ), it's about ongoing research and development coming up with new information.
It takes a lot of study, over a long time period, to satisfactorily prove many of these things. And new developments change the picture - electric vehicles, sustainable energy sources etc.

What has reliability got to do with being better for the environment? Higher MPG still is important in any case as you're using less fuel every mile travelled, also important in respect of diminishing resources and if you really believe that these decisions are made purely on the basis of long term research to "prove" all of these "facts" then you're a bit naive. I don't read the Telegraph, or the Mail but your bias and prejudices are showing again btw. :wink:

Decisions are often made for political, commercial and financial reasons rather than on "proven" facts and what the hell is a "proven fact" anyway when the experts are so often divided on opinion and arguing among themselves.

You can read whatever you like in published figures and statements of "fact" and I read a fairly comprehensive research paper recently where the concluding statement was.............

We can fairly conclude that whether or not buying an EV is an environmentally friendly decision depends on where you are in the world, and how sustainable power is there. EVs are significantly more pollutant than ICEVs in production phase; but they will make up for it over the course of their usage if they run on relatively clean power. If they do not, then they are found both to pollute more and cause more deaths than ICEVs.

( EV = electric vehicle, ICEV = internal combustion) This of course looked at the bigger picture including production and disposal impact and including the environmental cost of mining and transporting the battery components which are extremely harmful to the environment and expensive to recycle.

I won't be buying an electric car any time soon, at least until we are a lot further down the road with technology. I would have bought a petrol had it been available as I cover only £5000 miles a year and am paying a premium for diesel and I would definitely consider a Hybrid petrol / electric in the type of car I like.

The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned

Bob

 

[Jacob]

Sorry lons wasn't particularly thinking of you when I was being sarcastic abt telegraph readers!

....
What has reliability got to do with being better for the environment?

Last longer so less wasteful. My first diesel (Peugeot 305 van) did 250k miles (possibly more the speedo broke) before it exploded

...... what the hell is a "proven fact" anyway when the experts are so often divided on opinion and arguing among themselves.

Which divisions did you have in mind?

You can read whatever you like in published figures and statements of "fact" ....

No you can't. That's the whole point. If you believe that you can believe anything - and unfortunately people do!

Decisions are often made for political, commercial and financial reasons

yes of course. And some aren't - for instance the cost of obesity, alcohol, tobacco etc on health services is very high. Some action is taken but taxing sugar and alcohol much higher would pay for itself in no time. Similarly road speed reductions etc.

 

[Lons]

....
What has reliability got to do with being better for the environment?

Last longer so less wasteful. My first diesel (Peugeot 305 van) did 250k miles (possibly more the speedo broke) before it exploded

...... what the hell is a "proven fact" anyway when the experts are so often divided on opinion and arguing among themselves.

Which divisions did you have in mind?

You can read whatever you like in published figures and statements of "fact" ....

No you can't. That's the whole point. If you believe that you can believe anything - and unfortunately people do!

* Then by the time your van had covered 250k it had to be poluting badly if as you say technology is moving on then a newer vehicle would have been more environmentally friendly, shame on you for poluting your area. :wink: Getting old vehicles off the road is one of the main objectives is it not?

* Do some more research, divisions in all fields from food. health and environment. I'm not going to do it for you and I've already quoted one of the conclusions. Maybe you should buy a Telegraph or Daily Mail to update you Jacob.

* Well it appears you believe everything you read unless you're trolling. I believe nothing and take what I think is reasonable from all the different views. Whether right or wrong I'm not "Donald Trump" enough to think my view is the only correct one. :lol:

 

[Jacob]

...
* Then by the time your van had covered 250k it had to be poluting badly if as you say technology is moving on then a newer vehicle would have been more environmentally friendly, shame on you for poluting your area. ...:

Fair point! It's swings and roundabouts.

Maybe you should buy a Telegraph or Daily Mail to update you Jacob.

I've been looking at the mail for sensible advice about immigration. Very informative! I'm sure they are just as objective and trustworthy about other issues.

 

[Lons]

I've been looking at the mail for sensible advice about immigration. Very informative!

:lol: :lol: Now there's where you're going wrong Jacob! That's not the Mail it's The Express. You need to go to Specsavers. (hammer)

Agree those articles don't help anyone. It's what you get for spending 10p

 

[custard]

So if you're buying a new car today should you choose petrol or diesel? If a diesel scrappage scheme was introduced (the "carrot"), surely it would be accompanied by the "stick", a material hike in diesel duty?

If it's a car then I guess you 'should' choose electric or hybrid.

Not that easy. I used to live in London and had a hybrid which worked fine as well as avoiding the congestion charge, if I was still in London working in my previous job I'd have an electric car. But now I live in a more rural area, furthermore as a full time furniture maker I need a large estate car. The current mileage range of electric cars, the absence of estate configurations, and the lack of rural recharging points, means electric isn't viable (yet) for my needs.

So I'm still left with the dilemma, petrol or diesel?

If I buy a diesel then I might soon find the mileage advantage eroded by higher duty, I might be prohibited from driving into London or be faced with a whopping congestion surcharge, there could be more widespread parking surcharges for diesel vehicles, the residual values might crash if the tide turns further against diesel, or any of a million other restrictions that haven't even been dreamt up yet.

On the other hand currently diesel works out cheaper, so if nothing changes that's the hands down rational financial choice.

Maybe the sensible move is to postpone buying a new car for a while until things become clearer, that or buy on some kind of short term lease deal where many of the risks are carried by a third party?

 

[Jacob]

I've been looking at the mail for sensible advice about immigration. Very informative!

:lol: :lol: Now there's where you're going wrong Jacob! That's not the Mail it's The Express. You need to go to Specsavers. (hammer)

Agree those articles don't help anyone. It's what you get for spending 10p

Oh yes so it is! Same difference though.

Going back to the discussion; scepticism is good; science is based on scepticism; doubt everything , test everything, whatever is left may be the truth.
But it isn't the same as cynicism. e.g. climate change "sceptics" aren't actually sceptical, they have given up thinking and are just cynical.

 

[Beau]

So if you're buying a new car today should you choose petrol or diesel? If a diesel scrappage scheme was introduced (the "carrot"), surely it would be accompanied by the "stick", a material hike in diesel duty?

If it's a car then I guess you 'should' choose electric or hybrid.

Not that easy. I used to live in London and had a hybrid which worked fine as well as avoiding the congestion charge, if I was still in London working in my previous job I'd have an electric car. But now I live in a more rural area, furthermore as a full time furniture maker I need a large estate car. The current mileage range of electric cars, the absence of estate configurations, and the lack of rural recharging points, means electric isn't viable (yet) for my needs.

So I'm still left with the dilemma, petrol or diesel?

If I buy a diesel then I might soon find the mileage advantage eroded by higher duty, I might be prohibited from driving into London or be faced with a whopping congestion surcharge, there could be more widespread parking surcharges for diesel vehicles, the residual values might crash if the tide turns further against diesel, or any of a million other restrictions that haven't even been dreamt up yet.

On the other hand currently diesel works out cheaper, so if nothing changes that's the hands down rational financial choice.

Maybe the sensible move is to postpone buying a new car for a while until things become clearer, that or buy on some kind of short term lease deal where many of the risks are carried by a third party?

Driven diesels all my life but think they they are on the way out. Last family car we bought was a petrol as modern diesels don't like doing short trips. It's not as economic as we are used to but buying SH petrol cars is way cheaper than diesel ones and as low milage users the economy is not a big deal. To improve the emissions of modern diesels they have a lot of tech and so the lovely traditional simplicity of them has gone. Don't know how long it's going to be before diesel cars are going to be using Add-blue just to improve emissions.

 

[selectortone]

...I might be prohibited from driving into London or be faced with a whopping congestion surcharge

I used to regularly drive into central London 20 years ago. Did the same trip a while ago and vowed I would rather be boiled in oil than do it ever again.

 

[petermillard]

Not that easy. I used to live in London and had a hybrid which worked fine as well as avoiding the congestion charge, if I was still in London working in my previous job I'd have an electric car. But now I live in a more rural area, furthermore as a full time furniture maker I need a large estate car. The current mileage range of electric cars, the absence of estate configurations, and the lack of rural recharging points, means electric isn't viable (yet) for my needs...

Tell me about it. I looked into this last year and the only small electric van worth considering (for me) is the Nissan NV200e, but like 60-odd percent of London homes, I don't have off-road parking, so would either be using public 'slow-post' chargers (of which there are a few, to be fair) or drive half an hour or so to a Nissan main dealer in the hope that I could use their (one) rapid charger. The £2K installation charge (commercial innit?) to fit a charging point in my workshop makes that a non-starter, even if I could persuade the landlords to let me park on the loading bay overnight to charge. And all this for small van that does ~80 miles (real world) to a charge. No matter how much I'd like my immediate environment to have cleaner air, that's a tough sell, but when you factor in my low mileage and the average lease cost for an electric Nissan being roughly £90/month more expensive than the equivalent diesel version, it goes right out of the window.

Cheers, Pete

 

[Lons]

Oh yes so it is! Same difference though.

Going back to the discussion; scepticism is good; science is based on scepticism; doubt everything , test everything, whatever is left may be the truth.
But it isn't the same as cynicism. e.g. climate change "sceptics" aren't actually sceptical, they have given up thinking and are just cynical.

Are you saying I'm a cynic then Jacob or just reading from an encyclopedia?
I certainly have never said I don't accept climate change or the reasons put forward, what I do say is don't believe everything I read as being absolute fact.

 

[worn thumbs]

Call me cynical if you like.The only thing the dealers are interested in is getting customers signed up to personal lease schemes.The manufacturers will build cars that meet the standards called for.The enthusiasm for electric vehicles overlooks the need for a lot of extra generating capacity simply to meet current needs.Has there been a proposal for a new power station that didn't cause a protest movement?

I have been in a city recently when environmental conditions caused a bit of a haze and the official position was that those with respiratory problems should keep away and so should diesel cars.All very well in its way.At least one European city limited it's ban to vehicles over twenty years old and reference to the table at https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.php shows how much cleaner current Euro 6 engines are than those from 2000.
What alternative has better environmental credentials,taking account of the penalties of extracting minerals for batteries and catalysts?

 

[Lons]

Don't know how long it's going to be before diesel cars are going to be using Add-blue just to improve emissions.

They already are surely. My 2016 Audi A6 uses it as does the Merc C220 2015 that my mate has just bought. I just assumed it was for emissions reasons. :?

I'm a 4000 - 5000 miles pa user so a diesel doesn't make financial sense for me but no choice being the make, size and style I want. We did have a choice for my wifes car and chose petrol, the diesel version of that would have been an extra £2300 in any case.

We have to use cars as the bus service through our village is very poor but the environmental footprint of my car is relatively small due to the low mileage and as I keep my cars up to a maximum 3 years old they are also clean compared to older models.
Compare that with Jacobs boast that his Peugeot diesel van covered 250k before "exploding". It would take me at least 50 years to cover that mileage and with much cleaner vehicles. Might as well compare apples and pears which is why I question everything before accepting what's written.

Bob

 

[Jacob]

..... what I do say is don't believe everything I read as being absolute fact.

Quite right too.
In science there are no absolute facts - the nearest you get is the best hypothesis, or working theory/description.
Only religions claim absolute truth.

 

[Lons]

..... what I do say is don't believe everything I read as being absolute fact.

Quite right too.
In science there are no absolute facts - the nearest you get is the best hypothesis, or working theory/description.
Only religions claim absolute truth.

That's why I'm not religious Jacob.