Schoolboy error ref’ Stanley 5 1/2 Type 11 Cutter Size

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AdrianUK

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Will seem like a schoolboy error for some on the forum…usual suspects, however, I’ve just realised the 5 1/2 cutter width was a 2.1/4” up until late 1930s ish.

Can source a new replacement, also have a suitable Record cutter, however an original Stanley would be preferable, but probably like the proverbial hen’s teeth to find in the UK.
 
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Hi Adam, yep, have been for a while, a couple but in the US, which will be pricey once import duties and admin is added.
If I keep it, then may be tempted with a new cutter, Toolnut can supply one, prob Ray Iles also, however I note that they are thicker, so not sure how the fit would be on this older style frog.
 
I can't really help you with the technical plane stuff, as it's not my bag. @Jacob has a few spare plane parts, so you could ask him.

Can you not find a gash plane on ebay or a car boot with a good iron in it ?
 
I can't really help you with the technical plane stuff, as it's not my bag. @Jacob has a few spare plane parts, so you could ask him.

Can you not find a gash plane on ebay or a car boot with a good iron in it ?
Thanks Adam, hopefully he’ll read the post and may have something to add.
I’ve had this for a while, it’s a little bashed up already, really could do with replacement handles, rosewood I suspect, but I hung onto it as I’d not seen an early 5 1/2 before, but I possibly should move it on.
 
Thanks Adam, hopefully he’ll read the post and may have something to add.
I’ve had this for a while, it’s a little bashed up already, really could do with replacement handles, rosewood I suspect, but I hung onto it as I’d not seen an early 5 1/2 before, but I possibly should move it on.
I'll have a look in me box but I doubt it. I tend to fiddle about with them and sell them on, not keep many.
A modern 2 3/8" would file down to 2 1/4" I guess.
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#num5.5
 
How about that rather fantastic looking, old woodworking tools shop in Bristol that was mentioned in another thread, Bristol design. Ian
 
Don't beat yourself up, the change happened long before most of us were born & it's probably only common knowledge amongst those who've read Patrick Leach's "Blood & Gore" from cover to cover & remember every word, or had personal experience. I discovered this little bit of Stanley idiosyncrasy quite a while back, but only because I got a new blade for my old type 11 & found it was too wide. What the??!! I then did my research & became a little wiser.

In my case, the problem wasn't too difficult to solve. The mouth of my old (type 11) plane is wider than 2 1/4" & I didn't have to grind that much off the sides of the new 2 3/8" blade to get it to fit comfortably, it was barely a mm each side as I recall. However, unless you are a masochist, you will need some 'lectric assistance, modern blades are hardened for the entire length, not just the business end, so removing even that amount would be a rather long & tedious job by manual methods alone!

The alternatives are to search for an old 'genuine' blade (they do crop up occasionally), but that may take some time. Lee Valley used to sell 2 1/4" blades, but they seem to have stopped doing so, at least I can't find one on a quick search. An email to their customer service would soon put you straight on that score. Or you could ask Mr, Hock to do you a custom blade - it was $70 for a custom job a while back, plus postage, so not cheap, but he does make very nice blades.

Some other potentially helpful information: most modern blades are thicker than the originals, some a good deal so. This can cause you two further problems, one being that the cap-iron screw may be too short to fit though the blade & engage enough thread to hold securely. In my experience it's rare that the screw won't hold well enough, it's more an inconvenience because instead of being able to loosen the screw enough to slide the cap-iron off, the screw comes right out if I'm not paying attention & I end up searching for it amongst the shavings on the floor!

The other problem with thicker blades is that the cam of the adjuster yoke may barely reach the slot in the cap-iron. This means that only the very tip touches the edges of the slot, causing a) a very restricted amount of blade travel & b) lots more backlash. Again, manufacturing tolerances plus wera & tear means there's a wide range & in the majority of cases you won't have a serious problem, you'll probably just notice a small increase in backlash. I've not struck a situation myself where the cam failed to engage enough to get sufficient blade travel to be usable, but I have heard of it. So it's usually just a matter of learning to live with slightly sloppier blade adjustment. This bugs some people no end, though I have yet to figure out why - it's different on every Bailey type plane I own, ranging from little more than a 1/4 turn on the 'best' one to a full 2 1/2 turns on one very worn old workhorse, but I'm so used to it I hardly notice....
:)
Cheers,
Ian
 
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How about that rather fantastic looking, old woodworking tools shop in Bristol that was mentioned in another thread, Bristol design. Ian
Thanks Ian, I wasn’t aware of this place, good job I m not closer to it or it would probably keep me away from tasks I should be getting on with. The Stalbridge toolshop is not to far from family, often end up in there, it’s like sweet shop for big kids.
 
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........ A modern 2 3/8" would file down to 2 1/4" I guess......

Jacob, you may be using "file" in a very loose sense, but if you can file a modern replacement blade down to fit then you must have some pretty magical files - they are hardened to just a couple of Rockwell points less than a typical file for their entire length. The blades of old were usually only hardened up to the start of the lateral adjuster/cap-iron screw slot, so a file will cut for about 2/3rds of the length...
;)
Cheers,
Ian
 
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Don't beat yourself up, the change happened long before most of us were born & it's probably only common knowledge amongst those who've read Patrick Leach's "Blood & Gore" from cover to cover & remember every word, or had personal experience. I discovered this little bit of Stanley idiosyncrasy quite a while back, but only because I got a new blade for my old type 11 & found it was too wide. What the??!! I then did my research & became a little wiser.

In my case, the problem wasn't too difficult to solve. The mouth of my old (type 11) plane is wider than 2 1/4" & I didn't have to grind that much off the sides of the new 2 3/8" blade to get it to fit comfortably, it was barely a mm each side as I recall. However, unless you are a masochist, you will need some 'lectric assistance, modern blades are hardened for the entire length, not just the business end, so removing even that amount would be a rather long & tedious job by manual methods alone!

The alternatives are to search for an old 'genuine' blade (they do crop up occasionally), but that may take some time. Lee Valley used to sell 2 1/4" blades, but they seem to have stopped doing so, at least I can't find one on a quick search. An email to their customer service would soon put you straight on that score. Or you could ask Mr, Hock to do you a custom blade - it was $70 for a custom job a while back, plus postage, so not cheap, but he does make very nice blades.

Some other potentially helpful information: most modern blades are thicker than the originals, some a good deal so. This can cause you two further problems, one being that the cap-iron screw may be too short to fit though the blade & engage enough thread to hold securely. In my experience it's rare that the screw won't hold well enough, it's more an inconvenience because instead of being able to loosen the screw enough to slide the cap-iron off, the screw comes right out if I'm not paying attention & I end up searching for it amongst the shavings on the floor!

The other problem with thicker blades is that the cam of the adjuster yoke may barely reach the slot in the cap-iron. This means that only the very tip touches the edges of the slot, causing a) a very restricted amount of blade travel & b) lots more backlash. Again, manufacturing tolerances means there's a wide range & in the majority of cases you won't have a serious problem, you'll probably just notice a small increase in backlash. I've not struck a situation myself where the cam failed to engage enough to get sufficient blade travel to be usable, but I have heard of it. So it's usually just a matter of learning to live with slightly sloppier blade adjustment. This bugs some people no end, though I have yet to figure out why - it's different on every Bailey type plane I own, ranging from little more than a 1/4 turn on the 'best' one to a full 2 1/2 turns on one very worn old workhorse, but I'm so used to it I hardly notice....
:)
Cheers,
Ian
Thanks Ian, you’ve described exactly what happened in how I realised the cutter dimensions were not as I expected, then I also referred to Patrick’s site, and doh!
Still, it’s something now that I won’t forget, just in case I see another early 5 1/2, but thats unlikely I think.
What do you mean by backlash?
 
Jacob, you may be using "file" in a very loose sense, but if you can file a modern replacement blade down to fit then you must have some pretty magical files - they are hardened to just a couple of Rockwell points less than a typical file for their entire length. The blades of old were usually only hardened up to the start of the lateral adjuster/cap-iron screw slot, so a file will cut for about 2/3rds of the length...
;)
Cheers,
Ian
I'd do it on my 12" disc sander. No problem.
In any case I'd suggest getting a wrecked plane from ebay - cheaper than a new blade and good for other spares.4 1/2 same blade but tends to cheaper than 5 1/2
 
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........What do you mean by backlash? ......

Adrian, 'backlash' is the fraction of a turn (or as much as several turns) where nothing is happening when you spin the thumbwheel the opposite way after advancing or retracting the blade. It's caused by two things, one being any 'slop' (aka 'clearance') in the fit of the adjuster yoke in its groove on the thumbwheel. That usually contributes only a very small amount unless someone has mucked about with the thing or the parts are badly worn. The main cause of backlash is the loose fit of the cam in the cap-iron slot. It has to be a little loose to allow it to rotate in the slot as it's pushing the blade assembly one way or t'other, so even a brand-new plane has a little backlash, but on an old girl that's had a hard working life both cam & slot will be worn and the backlash may be considerable.

As I said, some folks it doesn't bother a'tall, others get really narked by it - c'est la vie...

Jacob: Ok, I rather suspected you were using "file" in a 'generic' sense & that somewhere, 'lectrickery would be involved, so I did try to phrase my post with that in mind..... :)
Cheers,
Ian
 
Contact Ray Iles. He makes 2-1/4in irons for the pre-war #5-1/2s. Can't see any bench plane irons on his site at present, though, Workshop Heaven also sell Ray's irons. Another source is Inchmartine Tool Bazaar who do spare irons for some antique planes
 
...also have a suitable Record cutter...

Yup, Record also made their No.05 1/2 with a 2 1/4" cutter up to 1938.

Their pre-WW2 T5 also had 2 1/4" irons, but when production restarted after the war they'd narrowed it down to 2".

Cheers, Vann.
 
Yup, Record also made their No.05 1/2 with a 2 1/4" cutter up to 1938.

Their pre-WW2 T5 also had 2 1/4" irons, but when production restarted after the war they'd narrowed it down to 2".

Cheers, Vann.
Thanks Vann, that’s probably where my Record cutter came from.
I wonder if the size change from 2.1/4” on the 5 1/5 to match the 2.3/8” of the 4 1/2 was due to a need to reduce costs after the war.
 
It was more likely to copy Stanley who I suspect would have standardised on 2-3/8in in order to reduce costs of of spares holdings. Other makers such as Millers-Falls and Marples followed suit between 1938 and thje mid-WWII period.
 
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