Scary or Water? Maybe both!

[ByronBlack]

I'm going to speculate, that after a while you may end up on the scary sharp side...

 

[jimi43]

I'm going to speculate, that after a while you may end up on the scary sharp side...

I'm keeping an open verdict on them yet BB...they certainly are close contenders....

The downside of the waterstones is the mess. This is mostly restricted to the 800 grit and not the polishing side which is relatively clean.

Water is something that is not in the shop by choice either...I woud definitely have to create a sharpening station if I were to do use this system or a hybrid whereas I don't need this with the Scary Sharp.

The key is...is the mess outweighed by the sharpness and is there a measureable difference?

I must lose my bias towards 3M papers first as this is colouring my opinion.

Jim

 

[jimi43]

I tinkered around tonight...with the No.5 1/2 as I restored it.

I already have a No.5 1/2 but that is still in the pre-scary days of sharpening...I need to get around to re-sharpening that....so this is a good test to bring me back happy with this size plane.

The iron with the plane is a pretty standard original Stanley...nothing special..so I thought I would try standard 220 grit wet and dry to "grind" the edge to 25 degrees and see how I get on with just a primary bevel.

After the entire edge turned over to give a burr...I removed this and went up to 400 grit wet and dry and then straight to 12000 mesh 3M Micro-mesh.

The edge ain't pretty...

but it is actually frighteningly sharp...

I tested the edge in the normal way by rubbing my fingerprint carefully down over it as I always do...(don't we all do this?) which would normally just prick slightly and drag a tad. This time it actually sliced a few microns off the top of my thumb!!!! It made me jump.

So...I stopped right there...to see how it performed.

Well it's another step up...I have to admit we are now getting into perfect territory and with just three simple stages. I could basically take whatever thickness shaving off of any wood I chose...

Cherry again:

There was absolutely no effort at all...one hand would have done it...

I tried oak...same thing...ending up with a pile of shavings all floating about the bench...

So...what does this prove...

Well...it proves that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Are waterstones better or the same as paper...well...not with the way I use them yet but the full potential has not been exhausted.

I think I am probably not enough of an expert with waterstones...I think I am becoming very proficient with Scary Sharp and other paper techniques.

What I am certain of...each day I am getting improved tools that really work effortlessly...and I am enjoying myself in the process.

Yes I am flitting from one to the other but that's the whole idea of the thread...and I think my initial bias for Scary Sharp may very well be founded in fact.

:wink:

Jim

 

[bugbear]

and went up to 400 grit wet and dry and then straight to 12000 mesh 3M Micro-mesh.

That seems a rather large step in grit size.

BugBear

 

[ByronBlack]

Id recommend a 5 or 1 Micron 3M lappign film to polish that micro-bevel for an even better performance.

Also, do you use the 'Ruler Trick' for flattening the back? I find this the fastest and most efficient way.

 

[woodbloke]

I go to 5, 1 and then .3 (which is around 18000g :shock: ) I find that with general hobiest use the papers last a reasonable amount of time. At the moment I'm working through the grits sorting out the backs of my Jap chisels which is taking some time, but I'm using some coarser w/d papers before I start with the 3M's - Rob

 

[jimi43]

Thanks for the comments guys.

This plane is my "play around with" one...as it is not a current "user" on the shelf so I can experiment. 400 grit wet and dry is about where I would start with Micro-mesh..(1500 mesh) but I was looking at the structure of the edge from this point on...the polishing stage.

Normally I would go up through the mesh to 12000 mesh which is about 2 microns. I haven't tried the lapping papers which I think is my next step.

What I wanted to see was the effect of a very accurate primary bevel using the guide which I achieved. I worked on the back in the normal way (no "Ruler Trick") and then rid myself of any roughness with the highest paper I had - again in the jig...on both surfaces.

I wanted to see what effect this had on sharpness as it stands. I will move on to micro bevels later.

Clearly there are a number of other issues which arise. If you hollow grind then the final bevel that is created on the iron is at the leading edge of the curve. This is slowly honed back until a new curve is necessary. So the TORMEK owners et al are working from this premise. I am "grinding" a flat bevel to begin with at 25 degrees which is a different starting value...and there are supporters of this approach.

Also, I have a feeling the lapping paper may be the secret ingredient here...it is a different structure paper to the standard Micro-mesh and there has been much approval of it here and elsewhere.

Jim

 

[ByronBlack]

Thanks for the comments guys.

This plane is my "play around with" one...as it is not a current "user" on the shelf so I can experiment. 400 grit wet and dry is about where I would start with Micro-mesh..(1500 mesh) but I was looking at the structure of the edge from this point on...the polishing stage.

Normally I would go up through the mesh to 12000 mesh which is about 2 microns. I haven't tried the lapping papers which I think is my next step.

What I wanted to see was the effect of a very accurate primary bevel using the guide which I achieved. I worked on the back in the normal way (no "Ruler Trick") and then rid myself of any roughness with the highest paper I had - again in the jig...on both surfaces.

I wanted to see what effect this had on sharpness as it stands. I will move on to micro bevels later.

I have a feeling the lapping paper may be the secret ingredient here...it is a different structure paper to the standard Micro-mesh and there has been much approval of it here and elsewhere.

Jim

I'm a firm believer that the lapping films do abrade in such a way that it makes a difference. I used to use papers, and never got as good as a result as I do now with the films. I don't know why, but they last longer, and seem to cut quicker and 'smoother' if that makes sense.

 

[jimi43]

I'm a firm believer that the lapping films do abrade in such a way that it makes a difference. I used to use papers, and never got as good as a result as I do now with the films. I don't know why, but they last longer, and seem to cut quicker and 'smoother' if that makes sense.

It does indeed BB.

I think it is more to do with the composition of the abrasive and the way it is adhered to the substrate. We all know that there are crap 400 grit wet and dry papers and there are superb 400 grit wet and dry papers...(which cost a lot more) so I think this might be the reason.

My supplier only does the standard and AL papers...where do you get the lapping papers?

Also I edited my last post just as you were posting...posing the question about the initial grind....hollow or flat...I think this has a major impact on the polishing techniques which succeed the best.

I don't want to turn this into another "my sharpening system is better than yours" thread...there are enough of those around...I just want to try to understand WHY there are so many of those around in the first place!

Jim

 

[ByronBlack]

Jim,

I bought my pack from Matthew, he does a pack here:

http://workshopheaven.com/cgi-bin/c...ening&catstr=HOME:Sharpening:Scary+Sharpening

Works out quite cheap to get started to see if you like them. They seem to last a long time.

I don't bother with a hollow grind. Although I have a grinder, I find it a real pain to use in setting angles, and being careful not to burn the steel.

I just 'grind' a primary bevel on the white sheet to 25 degrees (doesn't take long), and then I go on to add a 30 degree micro bevel.

With that pack, the highest is the brown 5 micron. You can also buy the higher ones as well (i'm going to be ordering the 1 micron to add that as the last stage of my sharpening).

 

[Mike H]

Id recommend a 5 or 1 Micron 3M lappign film to polish that micro-bevel for an even better performance.

I agree.

For the microbevel only I find that going through 5,1 and 0.3 microns leads to best results.

There is no need to go below 15 microns for the other one or 2 bevels.

Think how much you have to spend on a waterstone and flattening device to beat those results. At Ally Pally I witnessed some people being taken in for in excess of £300 for a setup recommended by Bob Crosman. It did produce fine results in Bob's hands(but what doesn't!) but no better than Scary. For that amount you can purchase a lifetime's worth of Scary.

Nice results on the plane by the way!

Mike

8)

 

[bugbear]

Id recommend a 5 or 1 Micron 3M lappign film to polish that micro-bevel for an even better performance.

I agree.

For the microbevel only I find that going through 5,1 and 0.3 microns leads to best results.

There is no need to go below 15 microns for the other one or 2 bevels.

Think how much you have to spend on a waterstone and flattening device to beat those results. At Ally Pally I witnessed some people being taken in for in excess of £300 for a setup recommended by Bob Crosman. It did produce fine results in Bob's hands(but what doesn't!) but no better than Scary. For that amount you can purchase a lifetime's worth of Scary.

Since the super-fine waterstones are very expensive, and since the wear on the super-fine abrasives is very low, this approach seems sensible, perhaps with another technology in the coarser abrasive range.

BugBear