Sawstop demo and thoughts

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johnnyb

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Anybody see the sawstop demo at Harrogate or elsewhere. Very exciting in the flesh and as doug mentioned slick as the Torrey canyon.
Will it be a great success? Or is it out of hobbiests means. It's the sort of advance that makes you go if only it was on everything! I found it interesting they choose a non woodworker to demo. His pitch was perfect. A very compelling case.
Are they taking the us by storm? Outselling the unisaw?
 
Our brothers and sisters across the pond seem much more gung ho regards guarding on saws. I have a number of US based team members and salaries and disposable income are higher in US than UK for the same roll, so priced in dollars against higher base salaries the saw is likely more affordable. Overall I think it won't see the same success here as it does in the US.
 
Sawstop will capture a slug of the commercial market because when employers replace saws they are likely to want to reduce their risk by ticking the safety boxes that the tool provides. It's a bit of a no brainer compared with the hassle of personal injury claims.
 
The best way to ensure table saw safety is to keep a certain sector of people well away from any machinery, these are the ones who need protecting not from machinery but from themselves.

This has been discussed on many occasions and the first point to note is that a table saw is not a portable tool so it cannot inflict injury unless you place yourself in harms way unlike say a 9 inch grinder or chainsaw. Safety has to always start with the person, forget machinery guards because if they are not in place then it is still safe because you as the person simply do not use that machine. I would suggest that the only way this saw stop system would be effective is if it is fitted to every table saw manufactured so no mater what machine you use it has the feature otherwise people with the system become complacent, part of safety is feeling that this machine is dangerous and treating it with respect.

Think of why accidents happen in the first place, there is often a simple cause. Crowded workspace, trip hazzards, poor lighting, no training, wrong attitude to safety or just bad operational practice so remove these and use long push sticks then how do you get injured ? Well not using long enough push sticks or being in a rush are good examples.

Then the sawstop itself, still not convinced because having worked with high integrity safety systems then a key part of these is testing to confirm that you know that upon demand this safety system will prevent the hazzard from being realised. So this sawstop that is preventing it from causing harm must be failsafe, ie if the safety system is not working then it must prevent the saw from working so how is this achieved. Also just like E stops and RCD's you need a periodic test to confirm operation, can this be done ?
 
Spectric rather than ask a bunch of questions to a group of fellow woodworkers with as much knowledge as you have about the saw at this time, basically nil, why don't you go to the SawStop website, pick out one of the saws you might be interested in and then read the manual about it? I've linked the ICS below. It is just a measly 100 pages or so containing everything from how to assemble, operate, troubleshoot, how the braking system works, what the display codes are, wiring diagrams, parts list, etc. If your questions are not answered you can contact the company directly and get the information. Once you know you can decide if it is a good failsafe addition to safe work practices or not.

https://www.sawstop.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/ICS-Cabinet-Saw-Manual-V3.2.pdf

Pete
 
I agree that training and good practice are essential anyway. But any device that improves the catastrophic risk from a momentary distraction or error, must be a good thing. I would buy sawstop if I was in the market for another table saw.

I can see some legal person dealing with a personal injury claim or tribunal saying to the employer "If you had chosen this sawstop saw instead of the cheaper brand X, then Mr Clueless would still have his fingers, wouldn't he". Hence, no brainer. It will take over.
 
I'll say it could takeover if it was adjusted to the needs of the industrial joiner/cabinetmaker. Its made for the us hobby market which is a world away from the UK hobby market imho.
 
It's a remarkable achievement imho. The cartridge is an alloy extrusion and a clear plastic box with a visible circuit board. I reckon something must have gone slightly wrong at some point otherwise it would have been on a big name saw. As it was they ended up developing there own brand saw and all the manufacturing hoo Haa and marketing flim flam. The real nitty gritty mechanism could be fixed on most saws I reckon.
 
I can see some legal person dealing with a personal injury claim or tribunal saying to the employer "If you had chosen this sawstop saw instead of the cheaper brand X, then Mr Clueless would still have his fingers, wouldn't he". Hence, no brainer. It will take over.
I think if gets that sort of traction, it would be driven by insurers wanting to avoid claims altogether (at the employers cost) rather than direct allegations that it is negligent not to use a particular branded technology only available in saws otherwise made to a very old fashioned pattern.
 
Sawstop saws are sawstop saws, the safety feature is not an add on but built into the saw so not a retrofit and therefore I doubt will be used on non saw stop saws.

1732129084144.png


Bosch was working on a system called reacxx but it was susceptable to EMC . Other makers might look at this but in a professional workshop there should be no requirement, but people still get injured.

The cartridge is an alloy extrusion
Cost around $100 if system activated and potentially a new blade, starts to get expensive when compared to push sticks.
 
Then the sawstop itself, still not convinced because having worked with high integrity safety systems then a key part of these is testing to confirm that you know that upon demand this safety system will prevent the hazzard from being realised. So this sawstop that is preventing it from causing harm must be failsafe, ie if the safety system is not working then it must prevent the saw from working so how is this achieved. Also just like E stops and RCD's you need a periodic test to confirm operation, can this be done ?
Also working in a high hazard industry with high integrity safety systems I have also wondered how they have addressed the issue of reliability, I wonder if there could be something to learn. The routine testing of these system needs plant downtime and not infrequently causes incidents itself.
 
I realise that sawstop can't be retrofitted but the tech could easily be applied to any brand saw. If they thought it sufficiently profitable.
The altendorf is an eye opener but it will be only high end shops that use those.
 
The best way to ensure table saw safety is to keep a certain sector of people well away from any machinery, these are the ones who need protecting not from machinery but from themselves.

This has been discussed on many occasions and the first point to note is that a table saw is not a portable tool so it cannot inflict injury unless you place yourself in harms way unlike say a 9 inch grinder or chainsaw. Safety has to always start with the person, forget machinery guards because if they are not in place then it is still safe because you as the person simply do not use that machine. I would suggest that the only way this saw stop system would be effective is if it is fitted to every table saw manufactured so no mater what machine you use it has the feature otherwise people with the system become complacent, part of safety is feeling that this machine is dangerous and treating it with respect.

Think of why accidents happen in the first place, there is often a simple cause. Crowded workspace, trip hazzards, poor lighting, no training, wrong attitude to safety or just bad operational practice so remove these and use long push sticks then how do you get injured ? Well not using long enough push sticks or being in a rush are good examples.

Then the sawstop itself, still not convinced because having worked with high integrity safety systems then a key part of these is testing to confirm that you know that upon demand this safety system will prevent the hazzard from being realised. So this sawstop that is preventing it from causing harm must be failsafe, ie if the safety system is not working then it must prevent the saw from working so how is this achieved. Also just like E stops and RCD's you need a periodic test to confirm operation, can this be done ?
 
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