Sawing small or thin pieces??

[woden]

I'm not able to do much woodworking at the moment, and won't be doing any for some time to come. A load of other commitments and a lack of space are my two main stumbling blocks for now. However, in anticipation of getting back into - in my case - the very very steep learning curve I've been reading up on techniques, tools, etc. Eventually, when things settle down I intend to plump for some serious tools and am most interested in box making.

On that note about box making I've been pondering the type of saw I should invest in. While a table saw can do all sorts of stuff, I've read - on these forums I think - that you shouldn't allow your fingers to go within about 15 cms of the blade. As a lot of the stuff I can see myself cutting for boxes will be quite small this precaution sort of rules out a tablesaw. I'd still like to get a tablesaw but they seem to be only safe to use with bigger/wider pieces where your fingers are kept far from the blade. Push sticks don't seem to be an option either as they're for pushing not holding fiddly little bits up against a mitre gauge and so on.

How do forum members go about cutting or trimming very small pieces or ripping thin strips safely. For this sort of work would a bandsaw be safer? They're not as accurate but I'm into hand planes and so wouldn't mind using shooting boards or just planing to get things shaped to the lines.

 

[Gill]

Table saws are so much more accurate than band saws and accuracy is paramount for cutting the precise angles you need for boxes. Couldn't you use a home-made sled with a toggle clamp to hold your wood whilst you cut it on a table saw?

Gill

 

[Chris Knight]

Woden,

There is a variety of jigs that help keep your fingers ways from the sharp bits. Most take the form of some kind of sled on which the workpiece is mounted to push past the blade (or router cutter). Some are shown in this new DVD on box making http://www.robcosman.com/ which is well worth getting if only to learn how to make Rob's hinge. You can get the DVD here http://www.classichandtools.com/

Repetitive ripping of a lot of similar thin strips is the most difficult thing to do safely and quickly on the tablesaw. If you google on "Ripping thin strips" there is a lot of info and videos of various ways of going it. I suggest you read the different ways and then pick something you feel comfortable with. By all means ask for a critique of the method here .

 

[woodbloke]

Woden wrote:

that you shouldn't allow your fingers to go within about 15 cms of the blade

Current H&S regs state that fingers and other soft, fleshy, manglable bits should not come closer than 40cm to a spinning saw blade. That, by a remarkable coincidence, is the length of my push sticks for the tablesauer (Alf spelling) - Rob

 

[Scrit]

On that note about box making I've been pondering the type of saw I should invest in. While a table saw can do all sorts of stuff, I've read - on these forums I think - that you shouldn't allow your fingers to go within about 15 cms of the blade.

I believe the distance now taught for C&G is about 40cm, i.e more than double the 15cm you quote, but that is an advised distance. The biggest issue with boxes is the need to saw off the top of the completed box and that is one of the few wood machining processes in which it is all but impossible to guard the blade adequately, therefore you need to think in terms of reducing the height of the blade to the bare minimum above the table top and how to keep your hands as far away as possible from the blade. You should also consider using a jig or workholder and batch machining components where possible with several clamped together at a time. This gives you something to grab hold of which places your fingers further from the blade, the extra mass and size of a jig can help control the cut and clamping multiple parts together can help control spelch (break-out)

(tablesaws) ...seem to be only safe to use with bigger/wider pieces where your fingers are kept far from the blade. Push sticks don't seem to be an option either as they're for pushing not holding fiddly little bits up against a mitre gauge and so on.

In this scenario it becomes necessary to utilise a work holder of some description or a guide. Work can be held against a fence using a Shaw guard or feather board

rather than fingers. Here's a how to make page - OK if you realise that the guards "are removed for clarity" :roll:

How do forum members go about cutting or trimming very small pieces or ripping thin strips safely.

I rip thin strips down to 2 to 3 mm thick on either the bandsaw or the table saw. Bandsaw inaccuracy isn't an issue as the pieces will be either planed or sanded to thickness subsequently. The process is to ensure that the face running against the fence has been planed flat before making the cut and use a featherboard to keep the work pressed against the fence during the cut. I have used this method to cut solid wood lippings for years and it's only when you get down to the last pieces thet a featherboard becomes necessary. The trick for thicknessing thin material, especially if your thicknesser has bed rollers, is to add an auxilliary solid table of 18mm MFC or MF-MDF on top of the thicknesser bed, even then you'll get a percentage of pieces which will simply explode in the thicknesser because of small knots, cracks or wayward grain. As for other cutting, think how jewellers or precision tool makers work and take a leaf out of their book - they obviously can't hold tiny workpieces in their hands so they devise workholding jigs to give them something bigger to hold on top and keep their fingers further away from the cutting tool.

Scrit

 

[woodbloke]

The lids for boxes can also be separated using a bandsaw, provided that the depth of cut is adequate. I only have a bandsaw with a 150mm depth of cut so the lid of the jewelry box in my avatar was cut off by hand with a tenon saw and then both pieces planed to fit afterwards. Not too difficult but a degree of care needs to be exercised as you go round the line with the saw - Rob

 

[engineer one]

brimarc distribute the proxxon range from i think germany.
they do a couple of small table saws. i guess that if you are making boxes of less than 15mm thickness, this might well be the way to go for final work, whilst a rail and saw would be the answer for the initial sizing.

paul :wink:

 

[woden]

Thanks for the responses, guys. So it seems that I should risk it and go for a table saw, even for smaller stuff.

...As for other cutting, think how jewellers or precision tool makers work and take a leaf out of their book - they obviously can't hold tiny workpieces in their hands so they devise workholding jigs to give them something bigger to hold on top and keep their fingers further away from the cutting tool.

That seems to be a really good angle to look at this problem from, I'll bear that thought in mind.

When you guys talk about a sled that's essentially a tray that runs in the mitre slots and carries the wood while it sits stationary? Say if you wanted to cut a number of differently shaped small triangles would a hold down clamp mounted in the middle of the sled near the cut line be the way to go to secure the pieces in place? I suppose if you had some way of detaching and repositioning the clamps - with the floor of the sled completely clear when they'd been removed - you could safely cut pieces at all sorts of angles.

As for feather boards are these always clamped in a fixed position on the table? Is this not difficult to do if the piece you are ripping is small and narrow thus leaving the feather board far from the edge of the table and in a position that's difficult for the clamp to reach? I'm probably showing my complete ignorance here but can you run a feather board in the mitre slot?

Current H&S regs state that fingers and other soft, fleshy, manglable bits should not come closer than 40cm to a spinning saw blade. ...

This might be blasphemous but aren't some H&S regulations in the UK a bit over the top. I mean I want to be safe but not to the extent that operation of a machine becomes difficult and limited. I've been reading a number of books on table saw use - all American interestingly - and they seem to even dispense with the blade guard for a range of versatile cuts like dadoing and cove cutting. I realise this is probably the last doomed statement before an accident but if you follow safety precautions too religiously won't the versatility of a table saw be restricted?

I seem to have gone from a safety orientated viewpoint at the beginning of this thread to a riskier one in this post but I actually see myself more in the middle. :roll: I want safe usage but not excessively and to the point where the use of any saw I buy is limited - I won't be in the position for a long time to come where I can have lots of different tools for different uses so I'll need to make as much use out of those, like a table saw, that I can buy.


Back on track again, does anyone out there cut small pieces in some other way without a table saw - like using a bandsaw and then shaping the components with hand planes? :?

 

[woodbloke]

Woden wrote:

This might be blasphemous but aren't some H&S regulations in the UK a bit over the top. I mean I want to be safe but not to the extent that operation of a machine becomes difficult and limited. I've been reading a number of books on table saw use - all American interestingly - and they seem to even dispense with the blade guard for a range of versatile cuts like dadoing and cove cutting. I realise this is probably the last doomed statement before an accident but if you follow safety precautions too religiously won't the versatility of a table saw be restricted

Woden - I 'spect you've seen those bullfighting thingies they do in Espania, you know where the blokie in a spangly suit waves a red rag at cow with long sharp pointy things on its head......Scrit will be along shortly - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Back on track again, does anyone out there cut small pieces in some other way without a table saw - like using a bandsaw and then shaping the components with hand planes? :?

Yes - not all of us have machinery. In many situations when working on small stuff you can cut it roughly to size and then finish it with a hand plane on a shooting board. This gives very accurate results - probably more accurate than using machinery.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woden]

Woden - I 'spect you've seen those bullfighting thingies they do in Espania, you know where the blokie in a spangly suit waves a red rag at cow with long sharp pointy things on its head......Scrit will be along shortly - Rob

:shock: Am I in trouble? :shock:

 

[woodbloke]

8-[ - Rob

 

[woden]

...In many situations when working on small stuff you can cut it roughly to size and then finish it with a hand plane on a shooting board. This gives very accurate results - probably more accurate than using machinery. ...

If that's the case would you say that a bandsaw might be the safer option to go for, Paul? Can you bring your hands much closer to the blade on a BS thus avoiding the need to make the jigs or sleds that would be necessary with a TS? Or is this method as time consuming, if not more so, if every thing has to be finished with planes as opposed to a single cut on the TS?

But then with small pieces time maybe isn't too much of an issue as there won't be much planing to do anyway. Then there's the fact that I'm just a hobbyist and won't be doing a production run. :wink:

 

[Colin C]

Hi Woden

There is one or two of us that dont use a table saw and can cut small pieces with my 8-[ 8-[ 8-[ :-$















EZ power bench or The Ez rails with the smart clamps

 

[woodbloke]

...In many situations when working on small stuff you can cut it roughly to size and then finish it with a hand plane on a shooting board. This gives very accurate results - probably more accurate than using machinery. ...

If that's the case would you say that a bandsaw might be the safer option to go for, Paul? Can you bring your hands much closer to the blade on a BS thus avoiding the need to make the jigs or sleds that would be necessary with a TS? Or is this method as time consuming, if not more so, if every thing has to be finished with planes as opposed to a single cut on the TS?

But then with small pieces time maybe isn't too much of an issue as there won't be much planing to do anyway. Then there's the fact that I'm just a hobbyist and won't be doing a production run. :wink:

The bandsaw, in my view is probably a 'safer' (said advisedly) saw to use. The direction of cut is vertically downwards and the teeth don't move with the same speed as the talbesauer, so fingers can be a little closer but for really close stuff I've just made a smaller pair of push sticks about 150mm long. That said, it's still a machine and will bite if it isn't treated with due respect - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

...In many situations when working on small stuff you can cut it roughly to size and then finish it with a hand plane on a shooting board. This gives very accurate results - probably more accurate than using machinery. ...

If that's the case would you say that a bandsaw might be the safer option to go for, Paul? Can you bring your hands much closer to the blade on a BS thus avoiding the need to make the jigs or sleds that would be necessary with a TS? Or is this method as time consuming, if not more so, if every thing has to be finished with planes as opposed to a single cut on the TS?

But then with small pieces time maybe isn't too much of an issue as there won't be much planing to do anyway. Then there's the fact that I'm just a hobbyist and won't be doing a production run. :wink:

I don't have a bandsaw or table saw so can't really comment on them. If you are making small things like boxes you could probably do it all with hand tools and save yourself a lot of money. If you want extreme accuracy with machinery, it seems that you have to pay quite a lot - and even then you would probably have to do some finishing work by hand.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[OPJ]

Woden wrote:

that you shouldn't allow your fingers to go within about 15 cms of the blade

Current H&S regs state that fingers and other soft, fleshy, manglable bits should not come closer than 40cm to a spinning saw blade. That, by a remarkable coincidence, is the length of my push sticks for the tablesauer (Alf spelling) - Rob

When I was at college (last year) we were told that the distance was 300mm minimum and so you're push stick would have to be no less than 450mm?

Then again, certain regulations changed within the three years I was there.

Don't ask me why some people I work with use a stick on 300mm long when ripping timber! :shock: I stick to what I've been taught for home use.

 

[Shultzy]

woden, I made this

using the 3 wheel band saw shown here

Its not accurate but you learn to live with what you have and make adjustments accordingly.

They are cut approximately to size and then finished off by hand.

Bandsaws are more versatile (cut curves and thicker wood) than table saws but are nowhere near as accurate.

 

[Scrit]

Woden - I 'spect you've seen those bullfighting thingies they do in Espania, you know where the blokie in a spangly suit waves a red rag at cow with long sharp pointy things on its head......Scrit will be along shortly - Rob

You called........ :twisted: :roll: :wink:

Say if you wanted to cut a number of differently shaped small triangles would a hold down clamp mounted in the middle of the sled near the cut line be the way to go to secure the pieces in place? I suppose if you had some way of detaching and repositioning the clamps - with the floor of the sled completely clear when they'd been removed - you could safely cut pieces at all sorts of angles.

If I were you I'd start thiinking in terms of a "sled" with T-slots cut in it and toggle cramps on top. A commercial toggle cramp looks like this:

and this could easily be mounted on some form of T-nut to locate in a T-slot. You could also make your own cam cramps as well.

As for feather boards are these always clamped in a fixed position on the table? Is this not difficult to do if the piece you are ripping is small and narrow thus leaving the feather board far from the edge of the table and in a position that's difficult for the clamp to reach? I'm probably showing my complete ignorance here but can you run a feather board in the mitre slot?

They are moved as required. I see no issues in mounting them in the mitre slot providing it is a T-slot of course.

This might be blasphemous but aren't some H&S regulations in the UK a bit over the top. I mean I want to be safe but not to the extent that operation of a machine becomes difficult and limited.

The regs apply to professional workshops although they are a good starting point for all woodworkers especially the unread, untrained and inexperienced.

I've been reading a number of books on table saw use - all American interestingly - and they seem to even dispense with the blade guard for a range of versatile cuts like dadoing and cove cutting. I realise this is probably the last doomed statement before an accident but if you follow safety precautions too religiously won't the versatility of a table saw be restricted?

Work without guarding and little or no understanding of the safety aspects and maybe the first time you'll realise that you've had a problem is when you're wondering where that red stuff is coming from and what that sausage on the saw bench is doing with a nail, a finger nail....... of course, you may never have a problem..... So how lucky do you feel? The table saw was never designed to do some of the things which people are doing on it, at least not safely - from a safety perspective dados (or more properly in the UK housings and rebates) are better/more safely done with the plunge router and/or spindle moulder whilst what you refer to as coving (actually cavetto moulding):

is more properly done on a moulder or spindle moulder because those devices are designed to guard the cutters adequately. These operations can be done safely on the table saw, although not the way our Transatlantic cousins tend to do them. It is my contention that they can be adequately guarded, but the people proposing these processes don't seem to understand how. BTW if you scout around on the American fora you'll see a lot more near miss stories than here in the UK. To me it's a bit like riding a motorcycle without a helmet - it's your choice, but which would you rather do?

But you started talking about making relatively small boxes - cavettos are really used a coving or crown mouldings on furniture and I'd say because the sizes are limited to larger stuff on a table saw that they'd possibly be of little use in box making. In fact the tighter radii you'll possibly need are more easily produced on the router table or spindle moulder. As you may also be aware, dado heads do tend to make a slightly coarse cut which may be OK if you're making low-value MDF Shaker doors but really are not to the standard you'll need for a good tight fit on a box, wouldn't you say?

Back on track again, does anyone out there cut small pieces in some other way without a table saw - like using a bandsaw and then shaping the components with hand planes? :?

Have you not considered back saws, tenon saws, gent's saws or even mitre saws such as the Nobex? As others have said, there is no absolute need to go to a table saw. Another thought (again as others have said) might be a miniature saw:

such as this Microlux which is specifically made for model making and small scale work. This all depends on budget and size of work constraints, of course.

Scrit

 

[woden]

I don't have a bandsaw or table saw so can't really comment on them. If you are making small things like boxes you could probably do it all with hand tools and save yourself a lot of money. ...

I'm genuinely interested to know what you use for sawing. Do you do it all with handsaws, Paul? If so, how do you go about projects? Handsaws don't strike me as being very accurate - well not in my hands anyway - so do you have to finish all your cuts with a hand plane or even sander to get a good finish/edge? What about really small fiddly pieces - do you find them difficult to secure while you saw them? That is, of course, if you use hand saws.

woden, I made this

...

That's very impressive, how long did it take you to make it? I think with smaller stuff your approach involving the band saw for approximate cuts and then finishing off with hand tools might be the way to go. A small bandsaw would certainly be a lot cheaper than a table saw. Do you find that the blades don't last that long before they have to be sharpened again, that is if they even can be sharpened? Also, I've read that you should keep separate blades for straight and curve sawing so you'd have to careful not to cut curves with your straight cutting blade.

If I were you I'd start thiinking in terms of a "sled" with T-slots cut in it and toggle cramps on top. A commercial toggle cramp looks like this:

Yes, that's sort of what I was thinking of, except for the T slots which sound like a great idea.

They are moved as required. I see no issues in mounting them in the mitre slot providing it is a T-slot of course.

I take it that if the mitre slot isn't a T slot there's a risk that the feather board would simply be lifted and thrown back with kickback?

These operations can be done safely on the table saw, although not the way our Transatlantic cousins tend to do them. It is my contention that they can be adequately guarded, but the people proposing these processes don't seem to understand how. BTW if you scout around on the American fora you'll see a lot more near miss stories than here in the UK.

Have you found Americans to be less safety conscious than woodworkers in the UK? To me it seems that they certainly put a huge emphasis on the use of the table saw. They seem to dispense with the blade guard a lot more while another difference with Europe is the lack of sliding tables and the use of splitters instead of riving knives. So maybe there's a contrast in the importance of safety too.

Have you not considered back saws, tenon saws, gent's saws or even mitre saws such as the Nobex? As others have said, there is no absolute need to go to a table saw. Another thought (again as others have said) might be a miniature saw: ...

Oh I have but it's just that sawing small and especially long thin strips can be even more fiddly with hand saws. With table saws and bandsaws I like the way that you can feed work in on a flat surface while the blade moves independently in a controlled, steady motion. With a handsaw it can be difficult to get small pieces clamped or held in position to saw them. As for securing and ripping down a thin strip of wood that can be even harder still.

The other reason why I would seriously consider a table saw is that I can see myself doing more than just small projects like box making at some stage. For anything larger or even for building units and things for a workshop a table saw would be much faster than the rough cutting and hand planning method. But having said that I'm very much torn between the two possible approaches I could take: buy a small cheap bandsaw or even cheaper hand saws and finish up with hand planes or go in for the extra expense and get a more accurate table saw that could eventually take on bigger projects.

I'm very tempted by the table saw option and yet I'm equally drawn by the savings I could make going down the cheaper route which I could then spend on other tools. My probable budget for a table saw would be in the £400 to £500 region. On top of this I might be able to stretch to a further £200 to spend on good blades or an improved fence - given that saws for less than £500 probably don't have very good rip fences or mitre gauges. But if I went for a cheaper band saw I'd have a few hundred to spend on other things. Hmm... :?