Saw stop

[Steve Maskery]

Where when you finish the cut, your hand is still in front of the blade. What I don't understand is why people use ones like this :

Your hand is just as close as if you were not using pushing sticks as you have to pass your hand passed the blade. I can see how they make pushing the material through easier, but certainly no safer. I shudder when I see people using them where their fingers are a few inches from the blade

That's because those particular ones are a poor example of that kind of push stick. It has the great advantage of pressing the workpiece down, especially useful if bevelling. But that PS should be longer and have a bird's mouth cut into the front end for those last few inches.

 

[Jacob]

.....I've watched/heard of people accidentally slipping with push sticks, pads and the like.

Yes but the whole point of the push stick is that if you do get it wrong you are still a long way from the blade. My push sticks get bits nibbled off the ends regularly but my fingers stay in one piece.
Not so with grippers and push pads - they put you too near the blade and make you over reach. Not good.

 

[Jacob]

...... push stick. It has the great advantage of pressing the workpiece down, especially useful if bevelling. ....

You can press down (and in) very firmly with the conventional push stick. Once you get the habit they really give a high degree of control - and a longer safer reach.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Sigh.
Jacob. They only give a longer reach if they are longer. If the boot one is the same length, it has the same reach, at the end of the cut, where it matters most.
Your system works well for you, and I'm not saying that there is anything at all wrong with it, there isn't. But I have both and value the benefits of each, depending on the circumstances.

 

[Jacob]

Sigh.
Jacob. They only give a longer reach if they are longer. If the boot one is the same length, it has the same reach, at the end of the cut, where it matters most.
Your system works well for you, and I'm not saying that there is anything at all wrong with it, there isn't. But I have both and value the benefits of each, depending on the circumstances.

The boot design has the mouth under the hand which puts your hand close to or over the workpiece - and what's worse - over the TS (planer etc) blades as they are uncovered at the end of a cut.
The conventional design has the mouth at the end which puts your hand about 10" from the workpiece and about 10 " from the blades at the end of the cut.

 

[custard]

I've heard of some nasty accidents with push sticks, the problem is that when you start to push the workpiece through saw blade you hold the push stick higher up at an angle of say 45 degrees, but as the workpiece gets further away there's a tendency to lower your hand to extend your reach. Because attention is focussed on where the push stick connects to the workpiece, there have been nasty cases where the operator has dipped the push stick lower and then fed his own hand into the blade.

Another thing to be careful with is pushing too hard on a push stick, as cutters and blades become blunt it's easy to shove harder rather than stop and replace the blade. If the push stick slips (probably more accurate to say when the push stick slips) you can find yourself in trouble.

There's no such thing as 100% risk free woodworking. All you can do is be aware of the dangers, take sensible precautions, and stay alert.

 

[Inspector]

What are the replacement costs if the sawstop is triggered (apart from a new blade) and how long is the time to deliver the parts. I take it the bits have to come from Canada/US?

Mike

In post 1237817 I gave the cost of the blade brakes. If the brake goes off by a body part touching the blade you mail it to SawStop so they can analyze the event and they mail you back a free one. If there is a SawStop presence in Britain they will have the brakes if you need them. As far as I know they are not sold in Europe.

 

[Jacob]

I've heard of some nasty accidents with push sticks, the problem is that when you start to push the workpiece through saw blade you hold the push stick higher up at an angle of say 45 degrees, but as the workpiece gets further away there's a tendency to lower your hand to extend your reach. Because attention is focussed on where the push stick connects to the workpiece, there have been nasty cases where the operator has dipped the push stick lower and then fed his own hand into the blade.

Seems extremely unlikely to me. Your hand is 6 to 10" away from the blades when you have finished a cut - why would you not notice this and still keep pushing? Those short grippers could be a hazard though as they put your hand over the blade at the end of a cut.

Another thing to be careful with is pushing too hard on a push stick, as cutters and blades become blunt it's easy to shove harder rather than stop and replace the blade. If the push stick slips (probably more accurate to say when the push stick slips) you can find yourself in trouble.

Nope. The whole point is that you yourself don't get in to trouble but the push stick does and may lose a little and need trimming or replacing, rather than your fingers

There's no such thing as 100% risk free woodworking. All you can do is be aware of the dangers, take sensible precautions, and stay alert.

Agree.

 

[LancsRick]

Clearly some strong opinions in here so I'll try to throw in a different perspective...

Good technique, push sticks, being aware are all aimed at preventing an accident. Prevention is always great, but we're human, and if anybody ever tells me that they've never made a safety mistake in the workshop I'm going to assume they've either not spent much time in one or they're lying. It might be once in a blue moon for the sensible woodworker,but it happens.

Saw stop is never going to stop you having an accident. What it will do though is hopefully make the result of any accident less severe. It's not a replacement for prevention, it's a last resort to mitigate the severity.

Just my view for what it's worth.

 

[D_W]

What are the replacement costs if the sawstop is triggered (apart from a new blade) and how long is the time to deliver the parts. I take it the bits have to come from Canada/US?

Mike

In post 1237817 I gave the cost of the blade brakes. If the brake goes off by a body part touching the blade you mail it to SawStop so they can analyze the event and they mail you back a free one. If there is a SawStop presence in Britain they will have the brakes if you need them. As far as I know they are not sold in Europe.

Add the cost of the blade. I wonder how many people actually wait for a free brake.

There was some griping on the US boards about triggering SS devices with embedded metal and water, but I've never used an SS, and can only mention it.

There's a strange provision for dados, too, isn't there?

I mentioned earlier I'd have one if I had students, kids or a public space. otherwise, they're not really for me, but even more in principle is the founder and his attempt to try to line his pocket by getting laws written for his benefit. That is a topic that gets hot in a second on a lot of US boards, and those boards tilt heavily toward no conflict (because less conflict is better for advertisers) of any type, so the topics disappear instantly.

I'd still have one for a public work area, though. You just never know who is going to do something stupid, and if they do, they may drag you around in court in the US even if they have no chance of winning. They can bring a pointless suit and still cost you a lot of money in the interim.

My kids will not use a table saw as long as they are under my roof. Their mother is a nutball, and my son (now 5) responded to me telling him to stay away from a CBN wheel by running over when I turned my back and rubbing the back of his hand against it. It peeled the skin right off. Their mother coaches them that life can be perfectly safe, so they're not suitable for anything that doesn't have second chances. If I told them not to touch a SS, they'd trigger it within a week just to see what I was talking about.

 

[Steve Maskery]

These are my current PSs.

The top one is for the Router Table. It has a V-groove along the bottom. The heel needs replacing.

The other two are for the TS and BS. They both give me good reach, have comfortable handles (the straight one is traced from my favourite kitchen knife).

When I remake the boot one - and I shall - I will make it a wee bit less high (it currently rubs against my guard boom arm) and I'll make the bird's mouth a bit less steep.

I wouldn't be without any of them, they enable me to count to ten without taking my socks off.

 

[JohnPW]

I don't see Sawstop as a license to be abandon standard safety measure. No reason you can't use 2 pushsticks, riving knife, crown guard, a healthy amount of fear/respect for the machine and Sawstop as an extra layer of protection. Apart from the initial dent in the wallet, where's the downside?

But lots of people, (in the US if going by what you see in Youtube videos), never used any safety measures, (ie riving knife, blade guard,keeping hands away from blade etc), to start with.

And Sawstop will let them continue to use a table saw like that, why would they start to use any safety measures? Safety measures are for sissies, right?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

But lots of people, (in the US if going by what you see in Youtube videos), never used any safety measures, (ie riving knife, blade guard,keeping hands away from blade etc), to start with.

And Sawstop will let them continue to use a table saw like that, why would they start to use any safety measures? Safety measures are for sissies, right?

Ha, ha. Your contribution, along with quite a few others, over the last seven pages seem to pretty much reiterate my contribution way back on the first page. It's interesting and rather funny how sometimes a thread meanders and dances all around a subject only to end up with little or nothing said that wasn't already known. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I don't see Sawstop as a license to be abandon standard safety measure. No reason you can't use 2 pushsticks, riving knife, crown guard, a healthy amount of fear/respect for the machine and Sawstop as an extra layer of protection. Apart from the initial dent in the wallet, where's the downside?

But lots of people, (in the US if going by what you see in Youtube videos), never used any safety measures, (ie riving knife, blade guard,keeping hands away from blade etc), to start with.

And Sawstop will let them continue to use a table saw like that, why would they start to use any safety measures? Safety measures are for sissies, right?

It's like riding a bike without bothering to learn about brakes, instead a gadget automatically pokes a stick between the spokes when an emergency stop is needed - if you are lucky, it's working, not been switched off etc

 

[ScaredyCat]

These are my current PSs.

I see you like to do most of your cutting from Belgium...





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[Steve Maskery]

?

 

[Inspector]

Steve he is kidding you about the length of your push sticks. Or do you just have a tiny tiny saw?

Pete

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ah, I see. It's not the size of your saw that matters, it's what you do with it.
To comply with HSE recommendations, PSs should be 400mm long (EDIT - 450mm now, thanks Peter), and mine are (I shall go and check!).

Edit again: Phew, turns out they are 465mm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

 

[Ttrees]

Another thing that I should have known!
I should really read and thoroughly understand the HSE and PUWER , and what other organisations have you, advice.
Most aren't the most novice friendly read, or presented in a more thoroughly understandable easy to read from a novices perspective manner unfortunately
That should be a regulation in itself if they really cared. :x

Thanks Steve
We can never know too much about this !
Tom

 

[Jacob]

Sometimes the regs are ambiguous and should be seen as guides rather than being prescriptive. Easily misread - where they don't recommend something per se it shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as deprecation.
The two (standard design) push stick method gives higher level of safety than what the regs appear to recommend.
I haven't got them in front of me but I seem to recall that they recommend grippers and push blocks at some point. IMHO this is bad advice.
Steve's various interesting variegated push sticks are all very well, but I think the default should be the well known standard pattern (below) as it is very effective. Keeping to one design increases familiarity, safety and versatility.