Saw stop ( USA )

[Bingy man]

I recently came across this while searching for parts for a friends table saw , not sure if I’ve copied the link correctly but I’ll try it anyway ..

ToolGuyd > Power Tools > Saws > We’re Much Closer to SawStop-Like Table Saw Regulations – Update

We’re Much Closer to SawStop-Like Table Saw Regulations – Update​

JAN 9, 2024 STUART 62 COMMENTS

If you buy something through our links, ToolGuyd might earn an affiliate commission.

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) moved closer towards introducing a rule requiring table saw makers to limit the depth of a potentially injurious cut to no more than 3.5mm.
They “determined preliminarily that there may be an unreasonable risk of blade-contact injuries associated with table saws,” and are considering enacting a potential performance standard regarding how severe a cut can be in the event of an unintentional blade contact accident.
Basically, the CPSC has moved closer towards requiring Saw-Stop like active injury mitigation systems on all table saws.
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Here are the latest updates:
September 2023: CPSC staff provided a briefing package to the Commission.
October 2023: The Commission voted to publish an SNPR (Supplementary Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) in the Federal Register.
November 2023: CPSC published a proposed rule: Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws.
This document is an interesting read. It includes a background on the proposed rulemaking, as well as responses to 23 distinct comments and concerns expressed by the public and rulemaking opponents.
January 2024: CPSC granted an extension of the comment period.
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February 2024: The comment period will close on February 1st, 2024.
The supporting documents include comments and letters from various tool brands, some of which are particularly insightful.
A November 2023 response from Bosch says:

Bosch Power Tools and TTS reached an amicable solution on Aug. 8, 2018, that allows Bosch Power Tools to sell REAXX jobsite table saws in the United States.

From a November 2023 letter from SawStop’s parent company:

SawStop Holding LLC and/or SawStop, LLC have licensed intellectual property to Precision Products Company, Safety Chop, Inc., Griggio S.p.A., TTS Tooltechnic Systems AG & Co. KG, and to Robert Bosch GmbH and Robert Bosch Tool Corporation.

If Bosch and SawStop’s parent company “reached an amicable solution,” more than 5 years ago, and Bosch licensed SawStop IP, why hasn’t Bosch reintroduced the REAXX table saw?
Here’s one more excerpt from SawStop:

To the best of my understanding, all patents owned by SawStop Holding LLC which might have been considered by some to be essential to the proposed standard have expired except for U.S. Patent 9,724,840. SawStop Holding LLC is evaluating whether to commit either to making that patent freely available to competitors for use in the United States or to licensing that patent on FRAND [fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory] terms if the Commission enacts as a rule the safety standard presented in the current SNPR.

From a 2019 comment from SawStop inventor Stephen Gass:

It is worth noting that one of the industry’s most vociferous arguments against implementation of an AIM-based standard – that I, as the inventor, stood to benefit substantially from consumer protective regulations – is now a moot point; I have divested myself of all ownership in SawStop and the patents on which the company was built; the technology is no longer mine to control or benefit from. Yet here I am, still promoting the safety of table saws, because MBG [modular blade guard] -equipped saws have failed to protect users from the unnecessary and unmitigated torrent of injuries on table saws.

I didn’t know that.
Lastly, the CPSC published the minutes from their October 2023 meeting and vote.
Decisional Matter: Federal Register Notice: Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws, Supplemental Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (SNPR)
The Commission voted 3-1 in favor of approving the draft SNPR and to publish it in the Federal Register.
The sole dissenter provided a statement titled “Proposed Standard for Table Saws Would Create Harmful Monopoly, Not Ready for Publication.”
One of the Commissioners in favor of the proposed rule provided a statement titled “Historic Table Saw Rule Could Provide Greatest Net Benefits of Any Rule in CPSC History: $2.32 Billion Every Year.”
Here are some excerpts:

But today, we advanced a rule to save those fingers. To stop those amputations. Technology exists that could prevent table saws from cutting more than 3.5 millimeters into skin. That turns an ER trip to a trip to the medicine cabinet for a band aid. And our rule would require that level of safety. In doing so, the rule would provide the greatest net benefit to society of any rule in the agency’s history that I’m aware of—up to a $2.32 billion net benefit every year.

Why isn’t this safety technology ubiquitous? The answer might be as simple as money. Saw sellers appear to be scared that if they start selling safer saws, they will open themselves up to product liability lawsuits when injuries occur in great numbers on their other saws. So, we’re in danger…to protect their bottom line. I don’t appreciate that.

The longest effective date we are allowed to select by law is six months. To depart from that requires good cause. Here, staff seeks to depart all the way up to three years…and I don’t currently see any good cause to do so.

It’s also my understanding that many table saw manufacturers might currently have the rights to compliant safety features and are choosing not to incorporate them. It’s my understanding that the industry group, the Power Tool Institute undertook a joint venture among its members, including Hitachi, Bosch, Stanley Black and Decker, and Techtronic Industries and appear to have created viable saw safety features which may be usable by all of its members.

I wish this agency had done 20 years ago what we are doing today. A million people would have stayed out of the ER. 65,000 people would still have their fingers. And at least one friend of mine would still have his.
Today, we did good. And in the coming months…let’s decide to do good faster.

Once the comment window closes on February 1st, it might be a while until the next actions are taken.
Everything I read so far suggests that the major obstacles have been reduced to speed bumps, and that the CPSC is headed to a final ruling.
Whether you are for or against the proposed rules, this might be your last opportunity to chime in.
Documents
Index for Rule 3041-AC31 (Actions, Dates, Supporting Documents)
CPSC Docket No. 2011-0074 (Regulations.gov)
Commission Meeting Minutes and Vote Statements (October 2023)
Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws – A Proposed Rule by the Consumer Product Safety Commission on 11/01/2023
Notice of Extension of Comment Period(December 2023) – check that page for details on where to submit a formal comment.
Supported Documentation (Letters and Statements)
Read Also: Table Saws Might Still Require SawStop-Like Safety Tech (September 2023 Recap)

Related Posts:​

Dewalt 12″ Sliding Miter Saw “Stop Sale” – DWS780, DWS779, FlexVolt

 

[Bingy man]

It seams the consensus is on technology to protect limbs from serious injury than safe working practices over the pond . I actually wanted the sawstop before I got my dewalt but they would not ship it to the uk . I’m sure I read on this site that the saw stop function can be turned off and that the reason for this is damp timber can activate the device . Of course you then need a new blade and cartridge and your saw is presumably out of action until these parts are replaced ..interested in the thoughts of other members .

 

[niemeyjt]

In Europe, TTS also own Festool who use the same technology in their TKS 80

see Festool Table saw TKS 80 EBS 230V online

 

[Jacob]

I recently came across this while searching for parts for a friends table saw , not sure if I’ve copied the link correctly but I’ll try it anyway ..

ToolGuyd > Power Tools > Saws > We’re Much Closer to SawStop-Like Table Saw Regulations – Update

We’re Much Closer to SawStop-Like Table Saw Regulations – Update​

JAN 9, 2024 STUART 62 COMMENTS

If you buy something through our links, ToolGuyd might earn an affiliate commission.

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) moved closer towards introducing a rule requiring table saw makers to limit the depth of a potentially injurious cut to no more than 3.5mm.
They “determined preliminarily that there may be an unreasonable risk of blade-contact injuries associated with table saws,” and are considering enacting a potential performance standard regarding how severe a cut can be in the event of an unintentional blade contact accident.
Basically, the CPSC has moved closer towards requiring Saw-Stop like active injury mitigation systems on all table saws.
Advertisement

Here are the latest updates:
September 2023: CPSC staff provided a briefing package to the Commission.
October 2023: The Commission voted to publish an SNPR (Supplementary Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) in the Federal Register.
November 2023: CPSC published a proposed rule: Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws.
This document is an interesting read. It includes a background on the proposed rulemaking, as well as responses to 23 distinct comments and concerns expressed by the public and rulemaking opponents.
January 2024: CPSC granted an extension of the comment period.
Advertisement

February 2024: The comment period will close on February 1st, 2024.
The supporting documents include comments and letters from various tool brands, some of which are particularly insightful.
A November 2023 response from Bosch says:

From a November 2023 letter from SawStop’s parent company:

If Bosch and SawStop’s parent company “reached an amicable solution,” more than 5 years ago, and Bosch licensed SawStop IP, why hasn’t Bosch reintroduced the REAXX table saw?
Here’s one more excerpt from SawStop:

From a 2019 comment from SawStop inventor Stephen Gass:

I didn’t know that.
Lastly, the CPSC published the minutes from their October 2023 meeting and vote.
Decisional Matter: Federal Register Notice: Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws, Supplemental Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (SNPR)
The Commission voted 3-1 in favor of approving the draft SNPR and to publish it in the Federal Register.
The sole dissenter provided a statement titled “Proposed Standard for Table Saws Would Create Harmful Monopoly, Not Ready for Publication.”
One of the Commissioners in favor of the proposed rule provided a statement titled “Historic Table Saw Rule Could Provide Greatest Net Benefits of Any Rule in CPSC History: $2.32 Billion Every Year.”
Here are some excerpts:





Once the comment window closes on February 1st, it might be a while until the next actions are taken.
Everything I read so far suggests that the major obstacles have been reduced to speed bumps, and that the CPSC is headed to a final ruling.
Whether you are for or against the proposed rules, this might be your last opportunity to chime in.
Documents
Index for Rule 3041-AC31 (Actions, Dates, Supporting Documents)
CPSC Docket No. 2011-0074 (Regulations.gov)
Commission Meeting Minutes and Vote Statements (October 2023)
Safety Standard Addressing Blade-Contact Injuries on Table Saws – A Proposed Rule by the Consumer Product Safety Commission on 11/01/2023
Notice of Extension of Comment Period(December 2023) – check that page for details on where to submit a formal comment.
Supported Documentation (Letters and Statements)
Read Also: Table Saws Might Still Require SawStop-Like Safety Tech (September 2023 Recap)

Related Posts:​

Dewalt 12″ Sliding Miter Saw “Stop Sale” – DWS780, DWS779, FlexVolt

What raving nonsense. Somebody needs to tell them about push sticks.
Or the trade will gang together to sell us masses of expensive gadgetry

 

[bourbon]

Yanks will rip the stuff off anyway. The you tube videos I have see all feature NO riving knives and most of the guards removed

 

[Inspector]

The SawStop can be bypassed but it is a deliberate two hand operation, one to turn a key and a second to hold the start button for a few seconds until the blade is up to speed. If you shut the saw off after the cut you will have to go through the procedure every time you want to start it. Used for very wet wood, and/or pressure treated wood (it is usually wet) and materials that have metal foil (insulation board) or other conductive products. It is easier to use material that won't trip the brake than to cut the suspect stuff. In every case you only need to touch the material to the blade when it is off and the red light flashes telling you the blade may activate. If activated it takes about 5 minutes to switch the blade and cartridge. I have a few spares of both so never have a brake activation. Who only has one blade to their name?

Interestingly enough the blade brake in Festools saws are exactly the same as the brake in my saw.

Nobody is advocating against the use of push sticks, riving knives and blade guards or any other protection. The brake protection is a backup to a mistake someone may make. No different than airbags. Something to protect you when every good driving habit fails. This pending law only applies to newly built and sold saws. You will be able to keep using the saws you have and buy, inherit or be given a saw without the brakes including ones over a century old. Don't want it don't buy it but relax and enjoy your saw and the pile of push sticks you have. You are at an age where getting worked up over something not affecting you is not worth a heart attack or stroke.

You can't rip off the stuff off and have the saw work. If you wanted to do it you would be replacing all the electrics to make it a dumb saw. If people want to do that they might as well stay with what the have or buy an old saw and there are millions of them around. Tossing a grand or more of electronics isn't too bright. You can't change a culture overnight especially the stubborn ones.

Pete

 

[Bingy man]

I for one have learned through this forum that push sticks are the best way to keep your fingers etc out of the path of the blade or router bit -in fact anything that moves faster than you —has teeth or knives . I too have seen utube vids of crazy suicidal cuts on saws with no guard, or riving knife , with all sorts of equipment hanging overhead . Then there is a program called ( homestead rescue ) where it’s common for rescuers to hand 16-18 “ chainsaws to people that have clearly never used one and again no protective ppe gloves , helmet , trousers etc and off they go . I’ve seen kids with chainsaws and other machinery not suitable for use by youngster but it happens time and time again .

 

[Bingy man]

In Europe, TTS also own Festool who use the same technology in their TKS 80

see Festool Table saw TKS 80 EBS 230V online

£2,300 would buy a hell of a lot of kit ..

 

[Jacob]

.....The brake protection is a backup to a mistake someone may make. No different than airbags. ......

Very different from airbags in that brake protection comes into play every time you switch off, and is technically simple and cheap to build in. But not fail safe - they need adjusting at intervals and on many saws will be found not working, so not something you can take for granted. Never assume a blade is not spinning, especially in a noisy shop.
Push sticks are fail safe

 

[Matt_0222]

I did find out you can actually source a SawStop now and get it to Europe/Uk: . It’s a case of importing it from either China or Turkey.

 

[Inspector]

Very different from airbags in that brake protection comes into play every time you switch off, and is technically simple and cheap to build in. But not fail safe - they need adjusting at intervals and on many saws will be found not working, so not something you can take for granted. Never assume a blade is not spinning, especially in a noisy shop.
Push sticks are fail safe

With respect to the SawStop you are once again spouting off about something you do not have any experience with or know about.

The braking remains active when the saw is shut off until the blade has stopped spinning.

It is not a cheap and simple thing to build in as it needs an entirely different trunnion system. It ain't a slightly modified mechanism under the top and is unlike any saw you ever looked at or worked with.

Unless you change the blade and the diameter is smaller or larger than the one you remove you do not need to adjust anything. If it is a different size (diameter) and outside the parameters the saw won't start and the lights by the switch will flash the warning so you know you need to correct. The adjustment is an easily accessed (through the throat plate) Allen screw that you turn in or out until the blade tooth to brake gap is set. About 2mm. Only takes a few minutes.

They are extremely reliable and if there is any kind of problem with the circuitry the saw will not start until dealt with correctly. The lights flash in different patterns and intervals to tell you what is wrong. Hundreds of hours of use in almost 15 years and mine has never had an issue. I wish the computers and vehicles I've own were as reliable.

Having the braking system does not let you be a twit. You still follow all the safe working practices when using a saw of any kind. That most definitely includes push sticks.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

With respect to the SawStop you are once again spouting off about something you do not have any experience with or know about.

The braking remains active when the saw is shut off until the blade has stopped spinning.

It is not a cheap and simple thing to build in as it needs an entirely different trunnion system. It ain't a slightly modified mechanism under the top and is unlike any saw you ever looked at or worked with.

I don't know what you are talking about. The three motors on my combi machine all have automatic brakes and the blades stop spinning very quickly after switch off. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Spectric]

The braking remains active when the saw is shut off until the blade has stopped spinning.

If it did not then it would not have any use, it's purpose is to stop the blade spinning once turned off but trying to fix unsafe working practices with technology is not going to stop accidents, it will instill the attitude that the machine is now safe so I do not have to worry anymore.

 

[Inspector]

I don't know what you are talking about. The three motors on my combi machine all have automatic brakes and the blades stop spinning very quickly after switch off. That's all I'm saying.

Blade brakes in the context of the opening post of this thread refer to a flesh detection system that stops and drops the blade below the table in milliseconds to prevent life altering injuries, amputations. The electric motor braking you refers to are to stop a blade after being shut off and has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Pete

 

[Inspector]

If it did not then it would not have any use, it's purpose is to stop the blade spinning once turned off but trying to fix unsafe working practices with technology is not going to stop accidents, it will instill the attitude that the machine is now safe so I do not have to worry anymore.

There will always be reckless people that think a safety device will let them be safe while being stupid. It might however give them a second chance to smarten up and change their unsafe practices. If it doesn't then something else will take them out, preferable before they reproduce.

Pete

 

[TRITON]

£2,300 would buy a hell of a lot of kit ..

Cant buy replacement fingers though

 

[sy-]

It's a shame (although entertaining) these threads always turn into a bickering match. Having additional safety hardly suggests people are going to forgo push sticks and basic safety principles. This just reads as point scoring individuals from people that otherwise seem to offer lots of good advice and input

 

[Bruce Mack]

What raving nonsense. Somebody needs to tell them about push sticks.
Or the trade will gang together to sell us masses of expensive gadgetry/

Jacob, I'm making 2 push sticks The first is done, 18" in length, traditional style.
I have difficulty thinking of how to use the second. To keep the piece against the fence without causing binding on the blade, it has to be applied ahead of the blade. A featherboard does that well. If it is used to flick offcuts aside, will a less heavy 24" stick with a rudimentary notch work as well? I always use the bladeguard and the splitter.

 

[Bingy man]

Several threads over the time I’ve been a member have mentioned the statistics for amputations and life changing injuries in the USA that involve the table saw . My thoughts on starting this thread was merely to highlight that since its invention has the saw stop device made any real difference . Agreed it’s no doubt saved countless limbs and fingers but surely if it has caused a significant reduction in serious injuries and severely reduced all those amputations then it should of been rolled out to all makers of saw tables and be available in all countries at a reasonable cost . The saw I was looking at a few years back was only about $600 but alas not available in the uk . Great shame as it had the best reviews by far . At £2,400 to £3,000 plus for the festool equivalent most folk aside from professionals will most likely not bother . I’ll just have to keep working safe and hopefully not pick up any bad habits ..

 

[Doug71]

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before SawStop type technology is seen in all commercial workshops here in the UK. If an employee cuts their finger off and you don't have SawStop I'm sure there will be a case to say you haven't done all you can to keep them safe...........

Any additional safety feature has to be a good thing.