Sash window tooling 'systems'

[rich1911]

I have a big Felder spindle moulder and I'm looking to make sash windows.

Any recommendations for moulder tooling? Are the complete window 'systems' worth the money?

 

[Jacob]

I did hundreds of sash windows and other joinery - all period replicas, precise copies, no modern ones at all.
The only special tooling was DIY spindle cutters for copying mouldings, which is very cheap to do once you've got the hang of it.
Other than that it's all straight forward normal joinery, assuming you know what you are doing and have the design sorted.
A good morticer essential, along with TS, PT etc.

 

[Misterdog]

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/advice-on-sash-window-tooling.26346/

 

[RobinBHM]

I have a big Felder spindle moulder and I'm looking to make sash windows.

Any recommendations for moulder tooling? Are the complete window 'systems' worth the money?

I am not sure that window tooling systems will do much for sliding sash windows. Mostly because If you do a sash with horns you can't do a sash slot double tenon.

Also the window systems will only do one fixed rebate size. So either you would have an 18 mm rebate for double glazing of something like an 8mm rebate for slimline and single glazing.


The best resource is Whitehall tooling....get their latest brochure which has lots of drawings.

Whitehall also do conventional profile cutters that you use together with a 125mm rebate block and the scribe cutters go in a 30mm tenon block.

 

[rich1911]

Thanks, I'll have a look at Whitehall's site.

They have a double glazed sash 'system' but it's POA...

 

[mr rusty]

FWIW for my own sash windows (in Accoya) I pretty much copied the CAD drawings that one of the big window companies publish on their website for 24mm DGU, and used dominos because I don't have a mortiser and couldn't face hand cutting 60 haunched tenons...

I used a router table not a spindle to make all the sections.

 

[Ollie78]

Standard Whitehill knives. You don't need to get the system.
I use a 125mm rebate block with whatever mould is required underneath. You can adjust the rebates for different glazing thicknesses
They do knives that are the mould and rebate together but you can't adjust the "flat" between so I wouldn't get these.
I do my tenons on the spindle too. Just ask them to match the knives to the right size tenon blocks, again adjusted with spacers between.
Square chisel morticer for the mortices.

The only cut that you can't do in the :traditional" way is the meeting rail joint. This would have originally had a double tenon because of the overlapping bit. This is impossible with limiter tooling. They can do it with brazed cutters but you would need to have a different one to match every job. So not worth it.
So I just stick on the angled meeting rail fillet afterwards.

For the horns you will need to make up a clamping jig to hold the stiles very firmly, Whitehills will make a cutter to your drawing.
I had to buy an enormous block for this with extra thick knives because some of the horns need a large cut they need really thick knives.
Just a quick note, the work I do is replica stuff and using slim low sightline glazing units.

Ollie

 

[rich1911]

Standard Whitehill knives. You don't need to get the system.
I use a 125mm rebate block with whatever mould is required underneath. You can adjust the rebates for different glazing thicknesses
They do knives that are the mould and rebate together but you can't adjust the "flat" between so I wouldn't get these.
I do my tenons on the spindle too. Just ask them to match the knives to the right size tenon blocks, again adjusted with spacers between.
Square chisel morticer for the mortices.

The only cut that you can't do in the :traditional" way is the meeting rail joint. This would have originally had a double tenon because of the overlapping bit. This is impossible with limiter tooling. They can do it with brazed cutters but you would need to have a different one to match every job. So not worth it.
So I just stick on the angled meeting rail fillet afterwards.

For the horns you will need to make up a clamping jig to hold the stiles very firmly, Whitehills will make a cutter to your drawing.
I had to buy an enormous block for this with extra thick knives because some of the horns need a large cut they need really thick knives.
Just a quick note, the work I do is replica stuff and using slim low sightline glazing units.

Ollie

Thanks Ollie. Those 'systems' are eyewateringly expensive!

I have been watching Bradshaw Joinery making sashes and although he has a 2 head tennoner, I can see the process of how to do it all with the basic tooling.

Yes, the scribed bevel going through the meeting rails is a tricky one. I'll see what I can find to do that one.

I have a wobble saw to do deep gooves and a large rebate block. I also have a 40mm multi blade head by Trend, so do ovol mouldings with.

I need to find a circular groove cutter to do anti capillary grooves and drain grooves.

I have a ton of other questions about seals, tapes and the best glazing units to buy too...

 

[Jacob]

I know it's a step people are reluctant to take but I've been making my own spindle cutters from the start, mainly for replica period sash windows and panel doors.
It makes running a spindle cheaper than running a router and you can make perfect replicas of just about any moulding.
You only need a 6" bench grinder, one rebate block and one cutter block, though needless to say I've acquired a few more over the years.
Just thought I'd mention it!

 

[Ollie78]

Thanks Ollie. Those 'systems' are eyewateringly expensive!

I have been watching Bradshaw Joinery making sashes and although he has a 2 head tennoner, I can see the process of how to do it all with the basic tooling.

Yes, the scribed bevel going through the meeting rails is a tricky one. I'll see what I can find to do that one.

I have a wobble saw to do deep gooves and a large rebate block. I also have a 40mm multi blade head by Trend, so do ovol mouldings with.

I need to find a circular groove cutter to do anti capillary grooves and drain grooves.

I have a ton of other questions about seals, tapes and the best glazing units to buy too...

It is nice to have a tennoner ideally, but actually for sash windows you are only doing about a 50mm tennon so tennon disks on a moulder is fine.

For the meeting rail just do the scribes the same as the other end, or any other joint.
Then make up a bunch of 9 degree fillets just glue them on afterwards.

The subject of glazing is complex. For listed building work. I use slim low sight line 6.5mm units with krypton gas you can get them from 11mm to 16mm thick depending on what you can fit.
I do not use dry glazing method or tapes but Hodgesons heritage putty or Dryseal for both bedding and facing the glass.

Wouldn't bother with anti capillary groove.
I normally put an 8mm groove in meeting rail and bottom rail of the lower sash and use a reddiseals self adhesive pile carrier and brush pile. Paint it first.

For non heritage work you can do it different ways, the issue is with sliding sashes the available thickness is limited. You are not going to get a 24mm unit in there with any strength left in the structure.
This is why the fancy gas is used to bring the u value down as much as possible.

Are you doing the boxes as well?

Jacob
I never got into griding my own knives though probably should. I find that for the cost of having sets made it isn't that bad.
I only get them done for the custom horns really.
Now I have a bunch, one is normally near enough.

Ollie

 

[rich1911]

It is nice to have a tennoner ideally, but actually for sash windows you are only doing about a 50mm tennon so tennon disks on a moulder is fine.

For the meeting rail just do the scribes the same as the other end, or any other joint.
Then make up a bunch of 9 degree fillets just glue them on afterwards.

The subject of glazing is complex. For listed building work. I use slim low sight line 6.5mm units with krypton gas you can get them from 11mm to 16mm thick depending on what you can fit.
I do not use dry glazing method or tapes but Hodgesons heritage putty or Dryseal for both bedding and facing the glass.

Wouldn't bother with anti capillary groove.
I normally put an 8mm groove in meeting rail and bottom rail of the lower sash and use a reddiseals self adhesive pile carrier and brush pile. Paint it first.

For non heritage work you can do it different ways, the issue is with sliding sashes the available thickness is limited. You are not going to get a 24mm unit in there with any strength left in the structure.
This is why the fancy gas is used to bring the u value down as much as possible.

Are you doing the boxes as well?

Ollie

Hi Oille, Thanks for getting back to me!

This is place is not listed so I can use more or less anything, but I am thinking of 4/8/4 with Krypton. Not sure about warm edge and low sight line edges... I don't have any Georgian glazing to do. Just large single panes in each sash.

The frames are pretty bad too so will need to get them out and see if I can salvage them... They have been repaired at least once in the past. Cills have rot and bottoms of all the mullions etc.

Who do you get your glass from? So many to choose from!

 

[Ollie78]

Don't " get the frames out" unless you really need to or intend to totally replace them.
The boxes can be fixed whilst in position, replacement pulley lining, outer cheek and cill can be all be replaced. Using resin and the correct techniques. Do it properly with full width cill, somewhere on here I did a fairly long explanation of how to do it.

A 4/8/4 will be great if you can fit it. I like to allow an 8mm rebate in front of the unit so the "putty" looks right, so total rebate depth of 24mm will do it. With krypton and low e glass you can get about 0.9 u value if I remember rightly.

Warm edge is the type of spacer between the two panes, the black rubbery type rather than the old style aluminium ones, they will pretty much all be warm edge.

I have used many suppliers but currently use Treforest glass in Wales. But they might not deliver to you, no idea where you live.
They are pretty good but I have yet to find a perfect glazing supplier.
But some have been very poor indeed. Precision matters when you have such a small sightline tolerance.
Any decent supplier should supply you with a sample.

Another tip is to toughen all the glass ( you probably should anyway for safety) this gives the glass a slightly less than perfectly flat surface as it is re heated after cutting to size. It makes it look less brand new and more in keeping.

Ollie

 

[LBCarpentry]

I make loads of sash windows. The best tooling you can get is a Roman ovolo moulder head block and a 125 x 50mm rebate block sat underneath which creates a 9mm rebate.

if you make as many as I do then the only way is to have two spindle Moulders.
If your just making a batch as a one off I’d just use a combo of hand tools, routers and spindle knives / blocks

Louis

 

[LBCarpentry]

You want the tc moulder for the 1080 windows system from whitehill

 

[rich1911]

You want the tc moulder for the 1080 windows system from whitehill

I'll have a dig through their website and see if I can find that. Thanks.

 

[rich1911]

Don't " get the frames out" unless you really need to or intend to totally replace them.
The boxes can be fixed whilst in position, replacement pulley lining, outer cheek and cill can be all be replaced. Using resin and the correct techniques. Do it properly with full width cill, somewhere on here I did a fairly long explanation of how to do it.

A 4/8/4 will be great if you can fit it. I like to allow an 8mm rebate in front of the unit so the "putty" looks right, so total rebate depth of 24mm will do it. With krypton and low e glass you can get about 0.9 u value if I remember rightly.

Warm edge is the type of spacer between the two panes, the black rubbery type rather than the old style aluminium ones, they will pretty much all be warm edge.

I have used many suppliers but currently use Treforest glass in Wales. But they might not deliver to you, no idea where you live.
They are pretty good but I have yet to find a perfect glazing supplier.
But some have been very poor indeed. Precision matters when you have such a small sightline tolerance.
Any decent supplier should supply you with a sample.

Another tip is to toughen all the glass ( you probably should anyway for safety) this gives the glass a slightly less than perfectly flat surface as it is re heated after cutting to size. It makes it look less brand new and more in keeping.

Ollie

Thanks again Ollie, I will try Treforest just to compare prices. I found a local company (Dorset) that's quoting approx £50 per 0.5sq m for 4/6/4 softcoat outer with krypton and thin spacers.

Yes, I read that toughened glass comes out not perfect, which would suit the property! We still have a lot of orginal wavy glass in here.

I really don't know how much of the frame will be salvageable unit it gets dry and warm enough to get the sashes out and have a good look. I want to have a go at a small sash first, one that has a good frame, before I get into the big rotten bays.

 

[Ollie78]

As LBC says the TC heads are good, I have one, just be aware that you cannot just swop mouldings in the heads like you can with the standard cutter block. Tungsten is brittle and can`t stand much unsuported projection. If you are doing a lot of the same then they are great but if you need to do different patterns might be better with standard knives and limiters.

Ollie