Sash window restore

[HOJ]

Been asked to "do something" with this:

Any one come across this style, this is the closest I've got at the moment, and not sure how the middle sash would work, the outer ones look fixed.

 

[Jacob]

It'll have sash cord going across the tops with weights in the boxes mostly behind the brickwork on either side.
The only sensible way with a classy window like that it to take it home and repair/replace in the workshop, copying everything in minute detail, re-use the glass if it is original. If bad it might be easier to do all new work. They are easy to remove and refit and it needs attention to the cill obviously. £3k ish?

 

[toolsntat]

You will possibly need to remove at least the bottom fixed ones to access the pockets unless they have been made with inside face access.
If you can use the existing cord to pull through new cord or a string it can make life easier.
Cheers Andy

 

[Ollie78]

Might be a "venetian" all weights in the outer boxes.
Might be a fake venetian or partial, where only the top or bottom opens.
Just strip it out from inside and have a look.

Might be easier to just make a complete replica in the workshop and swop it.
This can be a lot less disruptive to the homeowner.

Ollie

 

[Adam W.]

Nice, where is it ?

 

[HOJ]

Thanks all, Its in a conservation area, listed, on a main road, over a shop, in a market town in North Suffolk.

Its got to come out that's for sure, I've got to think about what do I put in its place whilst fixing it.

Will do some homework on the "Venetian" style.

 

[nickds1]

I restored a bunch of sash windows in my Victorian house in a Tunbridge Wells conservation area.They're a pain.

If remaking the window, you have the option to double glaze - that was allowed in TW however that was many years ago. Double glazing is a huge win - sash windows freeze in winter and secondary glazing is horrible.

If you alter the sashes or glass, it's likely that you'll need to adjust or remake the counterbalance weights. Replacement pulleys, cord and beading etc. are still available.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks all, Its in a conservation area, listed, on a main road, over a shop, in a market town in North Suffolk.

Its got to come out that's for sure, I've got to think about what do I put in its place whilst fixing it.

Will do some homework on the "Venetian" style.

Temp replacement depends on how they want to use the room - dark (a board) or light. Simplest might be 3 panes of perspex in a frame.
Not really "Venetian style" it's a conventional triple sash.
I wouldn't go down the double glazing route it would involve complete departure from the existing design and all sorts of extra problems. Thick curtains, Roman blinds etc much better options.

 

[Adam W.]

I would strip the paint off properly and do an assessment to see if it works and what needs fixing before taking anything apart or jumping to conclusions.

Then make up the bits which need replacing and do all of the repairs in situ off a good scaffold. Take a sash out, take it apart, repair it and put it back.

This cuts down on the need for temporary works and you can re-assess what's been done each morning. I found it caused minimum disruption and I could maintain security and the weather tightness of the building at all times. It also meant that I was there every day which made the client relax and feel that the job was moving forwards.

For access, I used an ally tower which I took down each evening and made sure I put all the bits back in the window each time.

 

[Jacob]

I would strip the paint off properly and do an assessment to see if it works and what needs fixing before taking anything apart or jumping to conclusions.

Then make up the bits which need replacing and do all of the repairs in situ off a good scaffold. Take a sash out, take it apart, repair it and put it back.

This cuts down on the need for temporary works and you can re-assess what's been done each morning. I found it caused minimum disruption and I could maintain security and the weather tightness of the building at all times. It also meant that I was there every day which made the client relax and feel that the job was moving forwards.

For access, I used an ally tower which I took down each evening and made sure I put all the bits back in the window each time.

I've done repairs in situ but unless just basic maintenance I decided they weren't cost effective - sashes are so easy to remove completely. Also lets you remove accumulated debris, check pointing and the cill, woodworm in lintels etc. Client needs to be warned about possible contingencies not included in estimate - new lintel is a major job!
Never used scaffold - just makes everything so difficult. You can do the whole job from the inside much more conveniently - a day to remove the window and put in a board, which would be impossible from the outside, and 2 or 3 days to put it back, make good, re-plaster if necessary. Just needs a clear room and some dust sheets.

 

[HOJ]

I've no doubt in my mind if its going to be done its coming out, either one piece at a time or all of it, and back to the shop, it is not a good place to be working off a tower, did that before on another one round the corner from this one, absolute pain, plus parking out side is not an option which is another factor.

I doubt if conservation will allow DG in this instance as it is very dominant on the street.

I will get in and take a closer look when I get chance, and do an assessment, could be a nice job, will keep you posted.

 

[Jacob]

PS I've no idea how that canopy would be fitted - better make sure it doesn't come out with the window somehow, but I guess it'd be independent

 

[Adam W.]

I've done repairs in situ but unless just basic maintenance I decided they weren't cost effective - sashes are so easy to remove completely. Also lets you remove accumulated debris, check pointing and the cill, woodworm in lintels etc. Client needs to be warned about possible contingencies not included in estimate - new lintel is a major job!
Never used scaffold - just makes everything so difficult. You can do the whole job from the inside much more conveniently - a day to remove the window and put in a board, which would be impossible from the outside, and 2 or 3 days to put it back, make good, re-plaster if necessary. Just needs a clear room and some dust sheets.

Not at all.

Keeps all the disruption and mess outside and no interior remedials. Sashes are a doddle to remove from the outside too and how can you inspect the pointing, the sill and lintel from the inside ?

"a day to remove the window and put in a board, which would be impossible from the outside" - rubbish !

 

[Jacob]

Not at all.

Keeps all the disruption and mess outside and no interior remedials. Sashes are a doddle to remove from the outside too and how can you inspect the pointing, the sill and lintel from the inside ?

"a day to remove the window and put in a board, which would be impossible from the outside" - rubbish !

I've never done sashes flush fitted in the outer brick course like the OPs so we are talking of different things.
All the sashes I've dealt with would have been impossible to install or remove from the outside as they were installed from the inside in the first place into a rebate in the masonry. The front linings and head lining would show just an inch or so outside with the boxes much wider but behind the masonry.The frame itself would be from 4" to 12" wider or taller than the opening. Even the sashes themselves need freeing from the inside - taking off staff beads etc and pulling the actual casement in before you can move it anywhere.
But even if you could do it from the outside it's be an enormous hassle comparatively, not to mention having to fit scaffolding £2-3k on a big job or incredible labour of moving a tower around, even for just half a dozen sashes.
They are much easier to deal with from inside a big empty room with dust sheets!

These aren't typical sashes (biggest windows I've ever done!) but the removal and installation certainly are - entirely from inside. Except ladder needed to apply mastic afterwards. With a normal sash you can lean out and apply mastic or paint or anything, without even needing a ladder. My mate Richard fitting this one. He's nearly 7ft tall which is very handy!

Couple more here.This one boxes almost entirely behind the masonry - just an inch showing

This one one brick course in front and the boxes half behind in a rebate. 3 inches showing

 

[toolsntat]

Taking into consideration height and the proximity to the highway/footpath I would be looking at excluding any passing traffic/public or creating a self contained "drop zone".
Any damage to any party would be best avoided.
Cheers Andy

 

[Ollie78]

I've no doubt in my mind if its going to be done its coming out, either one piece at a time or all of it, and back to the shop, it is not a good place to be working off a tower, did that before on another one round the corner from this one, absolute pain, plus parking out side is not an option which is another factor.

I doubt if conservation will allow DG in this instance as it is very dominant on the street.

You might be surprised, it is often worth asking. Conservation officers are all different and I have on occasion had some with common sense.
Given the choice of a brand new window made to almost the exact pattern but with slim DGU`s or multiple repairs which will not be much cheaper you might get a good result.
I have previously had to submit demo windows (normally just a sash) for council/ listing approval which took a while but was approved. They said they were happy as the window looked exactly the same until you were very close.

The added bonus of this is you can just leave the old window in until the new one is ready.

Keeps all the disruption and mess outside and no interior remedials. Sashes are a doddle to remove from the outside too and how can you inspect the pointing, the sill and lintel from the inside ?

You can`t remove the box from the outside. I have repaired numerous box sashes, almost always without a scaffolding and from the inside.

Not really "Venetian style" it's a conventional triple sash.

I thought the central mullions looked a bit thin to house weight hence why I thought its a Venetian.
I always consider a triple to be hung as 3 separate windows sharing a box between.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

........You can`t remove the box from the outside. ....

though you can bring it in to the room and then pass it out through the window opening sideways and lower it with a suitable block and tackle - sliding it down the face of ladder

I thought the central mullions looked a bit thin to house weight hence why I thought its a Venetian.
I always consider a triple to be hung as 3 separate windows sharing a box between.

Ollie

I think of "Venetian" as triple with taller central window with a round head. But they are a bit non specific many of these terms. The weights could be strung across the top to boxes on the sides. Maybe just the top middle and the others un-weighted but sitting on stops.

 

[Ollie78]

though you can bring it in to the room and then pass it out through the window opening sideways and lower it with a suitable block and tackle - sliding it down the face of ladder

You could, if you really wanted to !

I think of "Venetian" as triple with taller central window with a round head. But they are a bit non specific many of these terms. The weights could be strung across the top to boxes on the sides. Maybe just the top middle and the others un-weighted but sitting on stops.

I know the ones you mean.
I agree the terms are a bit interchangeable.
I worked with a Scotish guy who called the staff bead " bars". As in "wha have ye done wi tha barrrs".
I always refer to the ones where the weights are all on the very outside as venetian, also the ones where the cord passes over the head of the side windows passes through a single, shared weight with a pulley in the central part of the box. Sometimes these are 4 windows together. They probably have another name too. I remember them being a pain to string.

Ollie

 

[johnnyb]

I've never seen this in any windows. it's like a gunstock in the top sash. it's in a cottage in Northumberland I'm staying in. also there's no weights or boxes or evidence of them being there( bit dangerous tbh)

 

[Jacob]

I've never seen this in any windows. it's like a gunstock in the top sash. it's in a cottage in Northumberland I'm staying in. also there's no weights or boxes or evidence of them being there( bit dangerous tbh)

Strange!