Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[mr rusty]

Never used a rod in my life. I draw everything in 3D cad, and pull the measurements from the model. 3D allows me to explode the 3D model into all the individual parts with dimensions.

in 3D cad using 3D subtract of one part against another gives you all the mating surfaces and dims.

 

[Jacob]

Never used a rod in my life. I draw everything in 3D cad, and pull the measurements from the model. 3D allows me to explode the 3D model into all the individual parts with dimensions.

Marvellous!

in 3D cad using 3D subtract of one part against another gives you all the mating surfaces and dims.

Having got the dims that's when you need to draw the rod.
Saves all that fiddling about measuring things to mark them etc., unless you can feed your data into CNC machines of course.
The dims aren't that difficult to work out even with a pencil on the back of an envelope but the critical thing is how to get them on to the workpieces. This is the whole point of the rod: just one transfer of the dims to the rod and then a simple, relaxed, almost error-free marking up of as many pieces as you need.

 

[mr rusty]

Y. I Get it, but up to now I have tended to use a printed dimensioned drawing and steel rules, unless I'm doing a lot of repetitions and then I cut a "template stick" (story stick?). However, as I've never been taught and made everything up as I go along, it's an education to see how other people work, and I learn something new all the time

 

[steve355]

Endless fun here marking up my new rails correctly from my rod. Whilst once this was obviously the way it was done in the trade, I do think it’s a more or less ideal method for a hobby woodworker to get beyond dovetail boxes and occasional tables that nobody really wants. Particularly good where the finished size is actually fairly crucial.

Few of the woodworking channels seem to cover anything like this.

I can see that CAD might be good if it can be printed and laid out on a board in such a way that it is a full size drawing. But for a home hobby woodworker the rod method is great.

 

[Jacob]

Endless fun here marking up my new rails correctly from my rod. Whilst once this was obviously the way it was done in the trade, I do think it’s a more or less ideal method for a hobby woodworker to get beyond dovetail boxes and occasional tables that nobody really wants. Particularly good where the finished size is actually fairly crucial.

Few of the woodworking channels seem to cover anything like this.

I can see that CAD might be good if it can be printed and laid out on a board in such a way that it is a full size drawing. But for a home hobby woodworker the rod method is great.


View attachment 166512

Looks good! You could do with more lines through ( see my drawing above) marking mortices on the stiles etc. You get to read them like a bar code and become very aware of what you are supposed to be doing and whether or not a line is missing, with a mistake waiting to happen!
Not just for the hobby woodworker - anybody without CNC or a full scale and very accurate printer.

 

[toolsntat]

Endless fun here marking up my new rails correctly from my rod. Whilst once this was obviously the way it was done in the trade, I do think it’s a more or less ideal method for a hobby woodworker to get beyond dovetail boxes and occasional tables that nobody really wants. Particularly good where the finished size is actually fairly crucial.

Few of the woodworking channels seem to cover anything like this.

I can see that CAD might be good if it can be printed and laid out on a board in such a way that it is a full size drawing. But for a home hobby woodworker the rod method is great.


View attachment 166512

Steve, did you see my missive about the closing rebates being too shallow in a real world environment?
I know you are practicing but best to get on board with proper procedure in the process.
If it is intended to be used in an existing opening, you may, at this stage still be able to salvage work done by losing 1/2" off frame height and width.
What is your rebate size on the frame?
Cheers, Andy

 

[Jacob]

........
Even modern writers like Paul (Mr Sensible) Sellers don't seem to be aware of this basic and essential technique.
....

A blog on P Sellers' site. Drawing Rods - Woodworking Masterclasses

 

[HOJ]

@Jacob why don't you start a new thread and call it "Bring back the rod".

 

[steve355]

Yes.
By hand tool or with band saw, TS, spindle, or combination thereof:
Mortices, and tenon cheeks, first. Then haunch. Then rebate and moulding. Then tenon shoulders last

This is a bit of a conundrum really as once your moulding and glazing rebate are done, your corner lines for hand cutting with a tenon saw are gone too. There’s no ideal way to do it.

 

[steve355]

At last my sash is done. Loads of little problems with it, gaps here and there etc. but nothing filler can’t fix and it won’t happen next time. I just need to trim/wedge/glue etc now.

One embarrassing problem… the top two panes are 2” taller than the bottom 2 panes! I have no idea how that happened but I’m not doing it all again.

 

[Adam W.]

It probably happened because the bottom rail is wider than the top and you didn't account for that when you set it out.

I would say that you should have used a wooden rod to set it out with, but I won't.

 

[steve355]

It probably happened because the bottom rail is wider than the top and you didn't account for that when you set it out.

I would say that you should have used a wooden rod to set it out with, but I won't.

Oh go on say it

I think you’re right, I divided the total height of the sash in 2 rather that the opening for the glass. Learning point #2427.

 

[Jacob]

At last my sash is done. Loads of little problems with it, gaps here and there etc. but nothing filler can’t fix and it won’t happen next time. I just need to trim/wedge/glue etc now.

One embarrassing problem… the top two panes are 2” taller than the bottom 2 panes! I have no idea how that happened but I’m not doing it all again.


View attachment 166588

It's because you didn't check (obviously) but you probably also got the procedure wrong; typically you draw in the cill details first (complicated bevels etc) then the head details. Then carefully set out the glazing bar or bars to give equal spacing between them. Quite easy. And easy to get wrong by other methods, what with different size rails, top, bottom, meeting, and glazing bars
One of the hidden benefits of the rod is that even if you make a mistake you may still get the thing with all parts fitting together - just a question of whether the client notices!

 

[Jacob]

It probably happened because the bottom rail is wider than the top and you didn't account for that when you set it out.

I would say that you should have used a wooden rod to set it out with, but I won't.

He would have made the same mistake and a few more no doubt.
Don't know why you've got a thing about the rod Adam - it's in Ellis and all the books, it's what everybody was taught, everybody did, and a lot still do. Furniture too.
Have a go if you ever get the chance to make a sash window.
PS and if you did want to use a "story stick" for some obscure reason, the best way to make it accurate would be to draw up a rod first and take marks from that
PPS Forgot to add - another strength of the rod is that you can check it just by looking, or casting your tape or dividers over. You can't easily check a collection of measurements etc, even of done with CAD, or check your marks on a "story twig" etc etc. You can check your workpieces just by dropping them on, etc etc.

 

[steve355]

There we go, frame draw-bored, sash wedged and trimmed, just wedged in place for now - no idea how the hinges are supposed to work in this design. But it’s definitely a window!

Massive thanks to everyone who helped me, I have learnt so much. I made tons of mistakes that I won’t make next time. I will write up the learning points.

 

[Jacob]

There we go, frame draw-bored, sash wedged and trimmed, just wedged in place for now - no idea how the hinges are supposed to work in this design. But it’s definitely a window!

Massive thanks to everyone who helped me, I have learnt so much. I made tons of mistakes that I won’t make next time. I will write up the learning points.

View attachment 166612

Looks good! A bit odd!
Yes you have a prob with opening - only 90º unless you splay the frame jambs.
Normal to leave extra length on the cill and head and treat the mortice as through, not a bridle joint. Then doesn't need draw boring and the "horns" protect the corners during manoeuvres etc.
Ditto the light, before you fit it to the frame - stiles longer and tenons sticking through, as you have done.
Helps with construction, then when you trim them off it's very neat.

 

[steve355]

Below some notes I made. Any thoughts or comments very welcome, I want the next one to be of a standard it could actually be installed and used!

Although I think I’ll make a couple of planes, then have a go at a box sash before doing another casement.

 

[Adam W.]

Yes, I would suggest that you need to practice everything by making small sections and examples of joints etc and get into an apprentice mindset.

This is something rarely done by woodworkers who generally just want to make stuff that works first time.

 

[steve355]

Funnily enough that’s pretty much exactly what I did. I did several franked joints, loads of glazing bars, coping etc. I’ve done enough projects and wasted enough wood to know that it won’t work first time unless you have some idea what you’re doing.

 

[Jacob]

Below some notes I made. Any thoughts or comments very welcome, I want the next one to be of a standard it could actually be installed and used!

Although I think I’ll make a couple of planes, then have a go at a box sash before doing another casement.

View attachment 166678

Measuring up.
Look closely at existing windows everywhere - talks measurements, photos, do practice drawings. There are endless design variations. Measure, take notes. Make no assumptions or guesses. Very little is made "by the book"
Best of all is to do a few post mortems on dead windows if you can find them. Maybe ask your local plastic window man for stuff taken out?
Timber
US redwood is favourite but there are others often used
Rod
You need a tape measure, combi adjustable square, an ordinary set square nothing fancy, rubber, pencil sharpener.
No pens - it needs to be erasable. 2H pencil best
There's a pencil technique for accuracy and keeping a nice conical point on it - you spin it slightly as you draw a line so that wear is even all round
Draw boring
not needed anywhere
Franked
is not traditional, is weaker and more difficult
Mortices and tenons
ideally match the chisel available and use same mortice gauge set to mark both
Wedges
Chop wedge room straight after the mortices. one swipe with a chisel no great accuracy involved. Usually use an offcut of the tenons to make wedges as it is exactly the same width (or should be)

PS Mortice gauge has to be a pin gauge and is essential. Wheel gauges no good.