Safety Gaurds

[Slim]

If the little voice inside you tells you "Don't do it" - don't do it, find different and safer way to make the cut.

Excelent advice Niki.

 

[Shultzy]

Check out the wood whisperer's site, his last 5 videos are on workshop safety.

 

[Slim]

Check out the wood whisperer's site, his last 5 videos are on workshop safety.

Just watched those videos and he does make some good points. I like the fact that he is not too proud to tell us about his past mistakes, no matter how stupid they were. (passing end grain over a planer in particular :roll: )

However, when it comes to tablesaw safety, he is still in the American mindset. It is all very well adding gadgets to you saw to prevent kickback, but he is still using a long through fence. Simply using a short fence will vastly reduce the chance of kickback. I just don't understand why they are so reluctant to use them in America.

The feather board will only work if the workpiece has straight parallel edges. Quite often the table saw is used to remove a waney or rough sawn edge, and obviously a featherboard would not work in this situation.

Oh yeah, no crown guard either. Although I do like his knee kicker for the off switch.

 

[BradNaylor]

As someone who uses a table saw every day of his working life, and who lost the end of his thumb on one earlier this year due to not concentrating, I would categorically give the following advice;

Use a short fence - the far end of the fence should not extend beyond the middle of the blade. This reduces the possibility of kickback caused by the work catching on the rising back of the blade.

Always use push sticks. The obvious reason for this is to keep your hands away from the blade. The less obvious reason is that when ripping a length of wood the feeding pressure should be directed diagonally towards the fence. When not using a push stick there is a natural tendancy to push with one's hand running along the fence, consequently exerting pressure diagonally towards the blade. Apart from a wavy cut, this can also result in kick-back.

Use the riving knife. For all the reasons given above. It is the best way of avoiding kick-back.

Use a crown guard. My preference is for the type secured to the riving knife; it physically prevents a piece of wood climbing up the blade - the prelude to being thrown across the workshop at the speed of a bullet!

I find that all of the processes which people claim necessitate removing the guard or riving knife are better accomplished with a router or spindle moulder.

Cheers
Dan

 

[skipdiver]

I agree completely with that.Good advice.My first ever proper job was making caravans and i started in the machine shop.I used on a daily basis,huge wadkin machinery,tablesaws,bandsaws,planers,sanders and no one gave me any safety advice or instruction.I learned pretty quickly to respect these machines and in time became competent but always very aware of the damage they could do.I saw plenty of nasty accidents and some funny ones,including a labourer who bent down to pick up a box of small hardwood parts i had just prepared and put his backside against the belt sander,removing a large area of skin.

I still have all my fingers some 30 years later and that is because i followed the above posters advice.If it didnt feel right then i didnt do it.In my opinion,any task that requires the removal of guards could and should be done elsewhere in a safer manner.

I've watched Norm on the telly using dado cutters unguarded and thought back to my caravan days when we used to put a trenching cutter in the radial arm saw to achieve the same result in a much more controlled way.

I think another very important thing to point out is quality.Buy the best you can afford.Some of these cheap imported saws are potentially lethal.

Four years ago this march i lost my brother in law and woodworking mentor to a work related accident.He was putting the lead flashing on a conservatory when the leg buckled on his steps.He fell,hit his head on the dwarf wall and never regained consciousness.The HSE report concluded that the steps he was using were domestic rated ones and not fit for purpose.The HSE guy told me that all accidents are a chain of events that could happen at any time.When the links join up someone gets hurt.A few weeks back i went to a memorial service for people killed in the workplace.Last year 76 people were killed in the construction industry,all of them preventable.

I'm sorry if this has got a little off track and a bit heavy but i'm just trying to point out how accidents happen so quickly and are nearly always preventable.

Don't take risks.It isn't worth it.

 

[Niki]

Well...so I watched the Woodwhisperer "Safety week 2008" video, about Table Saw Safety, and in my very humble and amateur opinion.....in one word - NYET - (Russian for NO)....I did not see any "safety" except this "Kick board" to stop the saw.

He mentions that he have students....

One minute later, he is telling us that he does NOT use the blade guard....well, if the "teacher" is not using the blade guard...good example for the young and un-experienced students...
OK, so everybody is setting the blade to 1/4" above the workpiece "for safety" but, when you rip a 2" or 3" thick wood, you have a 3¼" naked blade, before the cut and after you finished the cut, that is waiting just to bite you...and it happened...not only but also the UFO's will fly to your face...

Then, he is telling us that we have to put a Downward pressure on the board that is longer than the table top.....come-on....you didn't hear about something that is called "Infeed table".....

Another thing that I didn't like is....what for he needs a 3" (or more) high fence to rip a material that is 3/4" thick (or any other thickness)....I think that he must try to set the fence to 1" from the blade and try to rip ones with the "High fence" and ones with the "Low fence"....I did and I never went back to the "High fence"...

As Simon (Slim) mentioned, instead of all those gadgets to prevent a kickback from "Reaction wood", I can do better just with "Short fence"

I think that somebody that has a wedsite and many, many people are watching it (and according to the advertisements that are occupying half screen, he has many "clicks"), could give us a little bit more "safety"......

BUT, considering that it took some 40 years for the Americans to discover the "Magic Riving Knife", I think that we can expect that in the next 40 years they will discover also the "Short fence", "Low fence", and even, maybe, the "Blade guard" (according to Kelly Mehler, only 5% of the American woodworkers are using the blade guard)

niki

 

[Scrit]

Well anyone who has been here for a while will know my thoughts on this one (if not, please see my many earlier posts on table saws and kickback, etc). I am in complete agreement with Sgain Dubh and Niki. If at all possible use a table saw with a short position rip fence, riving knife and crown guard. Do use a push stick, or even two, and keep your hands 450mm away from the blade at all times. In addition I'd also recommed that you consider infeed and outfeed support for long workpieces (a fixed outfeed table is mandatory on table saws used in trade establishments for good reason) as unsupported long rips are anothe potential cause of kickbacks when the work piece tips down towards the floor and is caught in the rising teeth of the blade.

I am Norm / Self taught and as such have learned from the start to use a table saw without the blade guard/riving knife.

To the OP I say this; Norm is a very poor example of safe woodworking. Most engineers look askance at the minimal (some say inadequate) safety guarding on many woodworking machines and with good reason. Taking the safety equipment off is simply increasing your chances of an accident, and even American table saws come with splitter/riving knife and crown guard as standard. If you want some good advice, then read the relevant pages on the HSE web site, here.

IMHO I find the crown guard gets in the way for a lot of cuts I do, grooves, tennons etc. I do treat the saw with the respect it deserves as I know they don't take prisoners. I always wear safety specs and use a push stick.

Mailee, you surprise me. I'm going to ask you a question, here. Why is it necessary to actually see the saw teeth entering the cut? The rip fence itself is the guide, not a chalk line, and table saws aren't really ideal for freehand cutting. Assuming that your rip fence ruler is accurate, that the teeth of the blade are sharp and properly ground and that the timber isn't badly warped just what is it you are looking for?

The HSE could make climbing into bed sound dangerous! I haven't had a kick back for so long I can't actually remember the last one.
Common sense and stand out of the firing line.

Perhaps, but just because you haven't experienced one for a while doesn't mean they won't happen. "Common sense" says stay out of the firing line......... well if that's the case doesn't it also dictate that you use a machine with all it's safety equipment properly adjusted and in place and that you gen up a little on safe practice before using the machine?

Scrit

 

[Digit]

I do Scrit. I mangled two fingers due to the failure of a safety device so I'm well aware of the dangers.

Roy.

 

[Jeff Gorman]

The principle thing to bear in mind is that while cutting, one or both hands will be pushing fairly strongly towards the saw.

If anything untoward happens the hands will continue towards the saw blade, and possibly touch it.

Hence the need for a unbreakable push stick(s) at least 12in long.

 

[davegw]

This thread amazes me - Even Norm, at the beginning of his shows, explains that removing the guards and safety devices from tools is a bad idea.

I can remember watching my woodwork teacher at school remove the top of his finger with a band saw because he was showing off and not taking the proper precautions.

If you want to take the safety features from your tools, then so be it, but please don't tell beginners it's a good idea!

 

[mailee]

It is not a case of seeing the blade teeth Scrit just a fact that I can't make a cut halfway through the thickness of the timber with the crown guard on. I acknowledge that the crown guard is a good and necessary safety device for rip cuts or cross cuts to length but is only useful for this type of cut.

 

[Scrit]

It is not a case of seeing the blade teeth Scrit just a fact that I can't make a cut halfway through the thickness of the timber with the crown guard on. I acknowledge that the crown guard is a good and necessary safety device for rip cuts or cross cuts to length but is only useful for this type of cut.

What you are referring to, mailee, is a procedure called "deeping". If you are doing this on a table saw then your table saw is probably inadequate for the task you are trying to make it perform and you should, if possible, find a safer approach such as using a bandsaw or even a jigsaw...... Inappropriate choice of machinery is often a contributing factor to accidents

I do Scrit. I mangled two fingers due to the failure of a safety device so I'm well aware of the dangers.

I'm always curious when people state this. For a while I did a bit of work for an insurer and blaming accidents on safety equipment failure was a recurrent theme. Only rarely is it found to be the case, so I'd really like to know what your failure was. For the record I'll reiterate that I've had 13 stitches in my left thumb (22 lacerations) and reconstructive surgery on my right thumb - both were pin router accidents and neither was down to any form of safety equipment failure.

Scrit

 

[Digit]

How about a micro switch that failed to the 'on' position Scrit? Would that qualify?
That's what got me.

Roy.

 

[OPJ]

Hence the need for a unbreakable push stick(s) at least 12in long.

450mm/18" is a lot better. This way, your fingers should be 300mm/12" away from the blade which is much better than only 6"!

All this talk about deeping is interesting. I'm pretty damn sure it's an illegal practice in industry and yet I used to work for a company who bought timber (even 3"x3" section) where you can clearly see it had been cut like this!

 

[woodbloke]

Hence the need for a unbreakable push stick(s) at least 12in long.

450mm/18" is a lot better. This way, your fingers should be 300mm/12" away from the blade which is much better than only 6"!

All this talk about deeping is interesting. I'm pretty damn sure it's an illegal practice in industry and yet I used to work for a company who bought timber (even 3"x3" section) where you can clearly see it had been cut like this!

It's some years since I did a H&S course on woodwork machinery (mandatory in schools now for D&T teachers I think) but even then I recollect the instructor saying that push sticks must be a minimum of 400mm to conform to regs. It's also true I think, that 'deeping' is an illegal practice in industry, though I stand to be corrected if wrong
BTW, some excellent advice IMO from Scrit, Dan and others which is ignored at your peril - Rob

 

[slemishwoodcrafts]

Firstly everyone is right you must not remove the guard or riving knife!

Now to tell you what i do !!

sometimes i have to cut 4 inch boards down so i do this by passing the work over the blade twice with no crown gaurd and the riving knife set to be level with the top of the blade.
this is the only way i can work out how to do it unfortunately.

I have taken to leaving the riving knife in this position as its so much faffing about to keep altering it but this makes ripping say a 2inch+ timber difficult as i cant get the crown gaurd on.

I dont like this so i am thinking of getting one of those cantilever crown gaurds from axminster. the ones with the built in dust collection.
at £99 its a bit dear so has anyone had experience of these before i get it?

thanks

mike

Just when you mention the cantilever guards. I built one as my AS Technology and design coursework.

Follow the link for photos.
http://gallery.mac.com/mesler#100015

I designed with dust collection foremost in mind but also cause the guard on my saw is crap to say the least!!

Michael[/url]

 

[Scrit]

How about a micro switch that failed to the 'on' position Scrit? Would that qualify?

I'd say that was damnably poor design. I'd have thought that failure should always be to the "off" or "safe" position in a properly designed piece of kit

Scrit

 

[Digit]

That is now the case Scrit, but 30 yrs ago a single micro was deemed satisfactory. Now two switches are a required plus a mechanical interlock. The daft thing is that if the so called safety device hadn't been fitted I would have been working in a different manner and the accident would not have occurred, but it taught one thing that was useful when I became a safety officer.
A safety device that cannot be relied on is itself a danger!

Roy.

 

[dickm]

Always told my students in the lab that the most important safety device was between their ears.
(and some of them believed me :? )