Nigel Burden
Established Member
Have a look at this from Paul Sellers.
Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects
Nigel.
Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects
Nigel.
Sad story of my uneven bench top
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put a filler strip between the two parts of the top, set a cap iron on a long plane and plane it. look for high spots with any straight edge (no winding sticks needed) and plane off the high spots until there are none and then take continuous shavings overlapping each other until the surface is clean. it'll take an hour unless it's horribly horribly out of flat.
As far as flat benches, if you do hand work, you want some part of your bench to be flat enough to plane a typical part that you'd use (e.g., if you plane panels) to be a judge of flatness so you can do accurate work. If you don't work by hand, I don't know, but if you smooth plane and boards flex, no clue how it's not annoying.
Too much on youtube pretends to provide an easy solution, but the temporary solution results in permanent lack of skill.
As far as flat benches, if you do hand work, you want some part of your bench to be flat enough to plane a typical part that you'd use (e.g., if you plane panels) to be a judge of flatness so you can do accurate work. If you don't work by hand, I don't know, but if you smooth plane and boards flex, no clue how it's not annoying.
Too much on youtube pretends to provide an easy solution, but the temporary solution results in permanent lack of skill.
I thought this was sharpened last week but I must have had a moment. Sharpened the blade and it’s doing well.
timothyedoran
Established Member
I know that feeling. If in doubt I sharpen up.
I’ve watched some of his clips. Did you have any particular one in mind?
Danieljw
Those that never make mistakes, never made anythin
My work bench is 5mtr long (17 feet, there about.) Made from 50 x 250mm rough sawn pine frame with 18mm plywood top.
It has less than 0.5mm deviation end to end, and I make accurate joinery.
Work benches are made for work...
This nonsense you see on YouTube is more suited for your dining room.
I have a second bench over 100 years old, it was given to me by someone that was renovating an old barn, made from solid chestnut, it looks like the spanish civil war was fought on it, but it serves its purpose well.
Chinese digital inclination gauges work best in the bottom of a dustbin.
If you use a bevel gauge and protractor
You can knock out perfect angle gauges in second and eliminate doubt.
It has less than 0.5mm deviation end to end, and I make accurate joinery.
Work benches are made for work...
This nonsense you see on YouTube is more suited for your dining room.
I have a second bench over 100 years old, it was given to me by someone that was renovating an old barn, made from solid chestnut, it looks like the spanish civil war was fought on it, but it serves its purpose well.
Chinese digital inclination gauges work best in the bottom of a dustbin.
If you use a bevel gauge and protractor
You can knock out perfect angle gauges in second and eliminate doubt.
thank you for your reply and sharing your knowledge.
I have to admit I am struggling to understand how to use a bevel gauge and protractor to check for twisting on the bench! Sorry I am not trained in fine woodworking rather I am self thought.
Would you be kind enough to explain it to me or direct me to somewhere to learn more?
Regards
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
David Charlesworth is the very best at teaching how to plane correctly.
Most folks don't come anywhere near close to conveying this with as much detail.
Although Custard has some very good threads on it also.
Once one has that down, then it might be time to learn how a double iron plane
like a Bailey can work for timbers which aren't so cooperative.
Only two folks come to mind in this regard, who would be a good to learn this from...
What I mean is, that they go into a good amount of detail on the subject.
Those would be David Weaver above (David W youtube) look for his 'setting a cap iron' article on would centralz (not saying the real site name as I've got scolded already from giving advice on external forum links.
Not saying he's all that great at conveying clear concise advice, like Charlesworth for example.
Derek Cohen is the other fella who would be good to learn from.
Another English fella comes to mind also, but its just skimming the surface really, he should do another video on the subject to be a little more comprehensive.
That video thumbnail is misleading for example.
Pride and ignorance from the other gurus, is quite a hindrance for folks learning.
A bit of honest humbleness would go a long long way.
Tom
Most folks don't come anywhere near close to conveying this with as much detail.
Although Custard has some very good threads on it also.
Once one has that down, then it might be time to learn how a double iron plane
like a Bailey can work for timbers which aren't so cooperative.
Only two folks come to mind in this regard, who would be a good to learn this from...
What I mean is, that they go into a good amount of detail on the subject.
Those would be David Weaver above (David W youtube) look for his 'setting a cap iron' article on would centralz (not saying the real site name as I've got scolded already from giving advice on external forum links.
Not saying he's all that great at conveying clear concise advice, like Charlesworth for example.
Derek Cohen is the other fella who would be good to learn from.
Another English fella comes to mind also, but its just skimming the surface really, he should do another video on the subject to be a little more comprehensive.
That video thumbnail is misleading for example.
Pride and ignorance from the other gurus, is quite a hindrance for folks learning.
A bit of honest humbleness would go a long long way.
Tom
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I think he's pointing out that setting a saw blade is easier and more accurate with an ordinary bevel gauge and protractor.
A school protractor (£1 or so) just as good as an Invicta at £50 whatever.
In fact you angle device is not good in my opinion. It is effectively a very short level. The shorter they are the greater the error.
A normal builders spirit level would be handier, generally useful, probably cheaper and at say 1000mm long would be very accurate for your purposes.
Nigel Burden
Established Member
Sorry, that link brought up all the videos.
The one I had in mind is Bench hights and planing techniques. This is the one where he pulls the plane with some cord demonstrating the difference between a plane that you think might be sharp, ie. one that's still taking shavings, and then one that's been freshly sharpened. It's from seven years ago. I've posted the link again but you will need to go back seven years and search.
Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects
Nigel.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
A typical example from many gurus which won't show anyone how to use a double iron plane in less than ideal timber, and instead relying on party tricks.
Many folks starting off use knotty pine in most cases for their first projects, i.e a bench build.
Most of those guru's giving a dribble at a time hinting they have more to offer, but they never do, well as long as I've been into woodworking (around a decade)
Yes I know, spring chicken and all that....
At the same time... surely that is enough time........
To actually demonstrate how to use the Bailey style for knotty pine, or tropicals
without using machinery, and plane those timbers efficiently starting from roughsawn or twisted boards to finish planing, without ever needing a scraper for flat timbers ever again.
Nah, click-baiting is obviously much more of an earner,
so they continue to be elusive instead.
Kudos to another popular English man who actually gave it a shot, (sticking a video out there for all to see)
even when he was evidently newish to the game changing results of using the double iron plane with efficiency.
Wise enough to know a good thing when he seen it, a lot more of a trustworthy of a person to learn things from, rather than others relying on elusiveness and gimmickry.
Honest is what learners need, not crouching tiger hidden dragon malarkey
Tom
Many folks starting off use knotty pine in most cases for their first projects, i.e a bench build.
Most of those guru's giving a dribble at a time hinting they have more to offer, but they never do, well as long as I've been into woodworking (around a decade)
Yes I know, spring chicken and all that....
At the same time... surely that is enough time........
To actually demonstrate how to use the Bailey style for knotty pine, or tropicals
without using machinery, and plane those timbers efficiently starting from roughsawn or twisted boards to finish planing, without ever needing a scraper for flat timbers ever again.
Nah, click-baiting is obviously much more of an earner,
so they continue to be elusive instead.
Kudos to another popular English man who actually gave it a shot, (sticking a video out there for all to see)
even when he was evidently newish to the game changing results of using the double iron plane with efficiency.
Wise enough to know a good thing when he seen it, a lot more of a trustworthy of a person to learn things from, rather than others relying on elusiveness and gimmickry.
Honest is what learners need, not crouching tiger hidden dragon malarkey
Tom
Nigel Burden
Established Member
I take it that you don't like Paul Sellers then Tom.
The video was to illustrate how it is possible to not realise when your plane needs sharpening. It is not gimmickry as you can not force the plane as you have no contact with it other than the cord that you are pulling, where as when you are holding and pushing your plane you are adding weight which will enable a less than very sharp plane to still take shavings.
Nigel.
The video was to illustrate how it is possible to not realise when your plane needs sharpening. It is not gimmickry as you can not force the plane as you have no contact with it other than the cord that you are pulling, where as when you are holding and pushing your plane you are adding weight which will enable a less than very sharp plane to still take shavings.
Nigel.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I truly can't answer that question Nigel, I watch his video's.
He is obviously skilled, and I might have picked up a tip or two from him,
but that's about it really.
Oh I remember one impressive thing now what stuck
Watch him sharpen a gouge in a figure 8, pretty slick if you ask me.
Insert laughing at the spring chicken writing this!
That kinda thing is why I had a bit of a rant.
His pride gets in the way.
But watching him do anything related to hand plane, apart from sharpening,
is a bit like this guy.
Going back to your suggested link Nigel, it illustrates a point very well, demonstrating the plane working without anything else involved like skewing a blunt iron to make up for sharpness.
Sure a sharp iron is preferred, obviously,
but sometimes that only lasts for a very brief period on timbers with a high silica content, or timbers with knots for example.
If you set the cap iron close enough to deal with some troublesome timbers then it doesn't need to be so sharp, and it stays sharper for longer.
Believe it or not.
To prove this...
One can experiment with some real difficult examples of timbers with alternating grain, not all examples of troublesome timber with such grain is difficult though, so pick the worst or close to it, most offending piece you've got.
With your stock selected, sharpen the iron as you normally do.
Set the cap iron to about 1/32" and no further away from the edge than that, and plane it until the iron needs sharpening.
(some offending examples might need the cap slightly closer than that, if you've truly got some difficult stock)
You will get tearout, when it starts to get dull.
Don't sharpen it yet though!
Instead set the cap closer and plane it again and the tearout will disappear.
Magic
If you work with troublesome stock
Two planes or irons are needed to make use of the Bailey/double iron plane.
One will need to be set at half the distance away from the edge compared to the other mentioned.
If you can get the cap iron as close as a 64th away from the edge, then it basically means you can set it closer if need be.
That first plane has a profile sharpened with a camber that suits the timber...
It will likely not work any further away than the 1/32" with a 50 degree or hair over
profile on the cap iron.
Warren Mickley suggests going steeper, so that suggests one could get away with a larger camber than I would use for my timbers.
The steeper the cap iron, the further away the cap iron can be set, and likewise the opposite.
I have hit staples before and not damaged the cap iron when its honed at 50 degrees, that's why I suggest going to that angle.
But again regarding technique
Did I say Charlesworth's methods of planing are foolproof, and should be studied first.
He is not afraid of being honest, unlike some folk....
That other bloke will keep stringing folks along in this regard.
Chu, pok, hu, fa, stomp, the strength of 10 men he has!
[Edit]maybe I'm being far too serious, and I do like Mr Sellers.
after all I actually enjoyed the video I've just linked.
He is obviously skilled, and I might have picked up a tip or two from him,
but that's about it really.
Oh I remember one impressive thing now what stuck
Watch him sharpen a gouge in a figure 8, pretty slick if you ask me.
Insert laughing at the spring chicken writing this!
That kinda thing is why I had a bit of a rant.
His pride gets in the way.
But watching him do anything related to hand plane, apart from sharpening,
is a bit like this guy.
Going back to your suggested link Nigel, it illustrates a point very well, demonstrating the plane working without anything else involved like skewing a blunt iron to make up for sharpness.
Sure a sharp iron is preferred, obviously,
but sometimes that only lasts for a very brief period on timbers with a high silica content, or timbers with knots for example.
If you set the cap iron close enough to deal with some troublesome timbers then it doesn't need to be so sharp, and it stays sharper for longer.
Believe it or not.
To prove this...
One can experiment with some real difficult examples of timbers with alternating grain, not all examples of troublesome timber with such grain is difficult though, so pick the worst or close to it, most offending piece you've got.
With your stock selected, sharpen the iron as you normally do.
Set the cap iron to about 1/32" and no further away from the edge than that, and plane it until the iron needs sharpening.
(some offending examples might need the cap slightly closer than that, if you've truly got some difficult stock)
You will get tearout, when it starts to get dull.
Don't sharpen it yet though!
Instead set the cap closer and plane it again and the tearout will disappear.
Magic
If you work with troublesome stock
Two planes or irons are needed to make use of the Bailey/double iron plane.
One will need to be set at half the distance away from the edge compared to the other mentioned.
If you can get the cap iron as close as a 64th away from the edge, then it basically means you can set it closer if need be.
That first plane has a profile sharpened with a camber that suits the timber...
It will likely not work any further away than the 1/32" with a 50 degree or hair over
profile on the cap iron.
Warren Mickley suggests going steeper, so that suggests one could get away with a larger camber than I would use for my timbers.
The steeper the cap iron, the further away the cap iron can be set, and likewise the opposite.
I have hit staples before and not damaged the cap iron when its honed at 50 degrees, that's why I suggest going to that angle.
But again regarding technique
Did I say Charlesworth's methods of planing are foolproof, and should be studied first.
He is not afraid of being honest, unlike some folk....
That other bloke will keep stringing folks along in this regard.
Chu, pok, hu, fa, stomp, the strength of 10 men he has!
[Edit]maybe I'm being far too serious, and I do like Mr Sellers.
after all I actually enjoyed the video I've just linked.
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I use a 1000 mm L shaped profile to increase the level footprint.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It doesn't though. The level footprint stays exactly the same.
Have you tried using your ali strips as winding sticks?
They need to be precisely same height as well as straight.
Put them on the bench as per pic below - but easier to squint from the end of the bench rather than banging your head on it. Then swap/turn them about but in the same position on the bench. Should show exactly the same amount of error each time - if not then they are not straight enough.
If you bench is out by just a few mm it doesn't matter at all.
You get the expression "reference surface" with some of the new boy gurus - ignore it - it's not a woodworking idea it belongs to precision engineering
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Ttrees
Iroko loco!
What illustration is that from Jacob?
I wouldn't be impressed if I was the author and that's what the artist came up with.
Strange him/her wouldn't have a bash at it themselves, and draw something sensible, instead of putting that in their book.
Comes across like the publishers had the same attitude that the record companies had back in the day, must produce another hit to meet the deadline and all that.
Seems a typical example of where some of the attitude I was talking about above came from, totally unspecific and keeping to the tradition of being clandestine.
Thankfully we have, boring, non monetary infulenced forums, and exciting monetary infulenced youtube today, to actually learn from if we really want to.
Tom
I wouldn't be impressed if I was the author and that's what the artist came up with.
Strange him/her wouldn't have a bash at it themselves, and draw something sensible, instead of putting that in their book.
Comes across like the publishers had the same attitude that the record companies had back in the day, must produce another hit to meet the deadline and all that.
Seems a typical example of where some of the attitude I was talking about above came from, totally unspecific and keeping to the tradition of being clandestine.
Thankfully we have, boring, non monetary infulenced forums, and exciting monetary infulenced youtube today, to actually learn from if we really want to.
Tom
I tested them for straightness based on the method of three straight edges. I checked them against each other and then against a third one individually. All three were straight and they are exactly the same height. ( I learned the method from this forum). I hope this explanation is adequate for this brilliant way of straightness test.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
So have you tried them as winding sticks and can you find the error you digital device shows?
"Joinery & Carpentry " ed. Richard Greenhalgh, New Era Publications. Excellent 6 volume set - one of the best old woodwork text books you can get, from before the age of gadgets, jigs, digital devices and other nonsense!
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Straight they may be/possibly are pretty good, but rigid they may not be.
Have you checked how much they might deflect?
Pretty easy to check this by having one of your beams fully supported on the bench,
Using three blocks of some kind, one for each end and one in the middle.
Slide the middle block from under the beam and see if it pulls the straight edge.
Probably so, get some paper and shim each end, and try again.
You might get a rough idea on how much it deflects that way.
Tom
