Running up 12m of wooden moulding

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kevinr":2ohn027q said:
I have not seen it in use but they (and presumably many other yards) have CNC machines that can be set to cut stuff after giving them the profile.
The only "out of the box" system to do this is the Thermwood system from the USA. And there are very few Thermwoods in the UK so where you get this rosy picture of loads of yards with their own Thermwood CNC I really don't know.

kevinr":2ohn027q said:
As its not labour intensive you might get a rather better price! Perhaps try calling some timber yards in your area to see if anyone has the CNC gear to do it.
From someone who used to run a firm doing CNC machining: a fact of life about woodmachining and in particular about CNC router work - in order to cut any profile you need a set of knives or sets of knives which combine to make-up the profile you are looking for. In other words CNC machining centres are dependent on exactly the same cutter technology used on through-feed moulders, pin routers or spindles. You can achieve the same effect as the CNC by simply employing a multi-pass approach on a spindle moulder, pin router, etc. Very few yards I know of have invested in CNC router technology in any shape or form other than through-feed moulders - there simply isn't enough call to justify that sort of investment (£70k or upwards for a decent toolchanger CNC). However from a purely technical point of view there are problems machining a bolection moulding on a conventional CNC bed. The workpiece would have to be held clear of the bed on a jig and clamped so that it won't move under circa 50kgf of thrust from the cutters - and then machined using multiple passes of off the shelf cutters in a vertical spindle. This would cost a lot in terms of making up a jig. So in order to circumvent the need for a special holding jig the machining probably needs to be done using right angle aggregate head with conventional hold-downs so that the top face can be machined. Do that and you'll lose the tool changing facility - the aggregate with a permanently-mounted tool is the tool in effect. It is the toolchanging facility which makes the Thermwood (and similar) systems work.

It os worth bearing in mind that whilst there is less machining time on a CNC, that time is much more expensive and the set-up time is also going to be greater (with CNC shops looking for £60 to £90 per hour for CNC machining and set-up plus the cost of any special tooling). In pure cost terms using existing knives or grinding a custom cutter set is normally the cheapest option unless you are also looking for drilling, special slotting, etc at which CNC machines excel.

This is not being defensive, it's just that within the timber trades the understanding of how CNC technology works and can be applied is poor enough - outside I feel it sometimes seems to go off into fairy land at times......

Scrit
 
Well now, I'm surprised. Very.

Practic'ly all of the moldings (parts I mean) seem to be like stolen from the Stanley #55 catalog.

12 metres is plenty, but there is no reason why it couldn't be done with hand planes. That's what I do at home when I'm missing a piece of molding profile. I don't have the almighty #55, but it's surprising what you can do with a set of hollows & rounds and a few profiles.

I would think twice before going through the trouble of making 12 metres of it without the partial molding profiles, but with them... you'll save a lot.

Pekka

(edit: from left to right, #55 cutters: #82 ogee, straight part, #66 quarter hollow, #27 ½" bead, #36 flute. See what I mean?)

http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip9/stanl ... /55man.pdf
 
I'm always impressed with Mr Abrahams on telly when he makes up a special length of moulding or archirtave using various rip cuts/grooves/rebates/unusual router cuts etc 8) :D Its amazing what he does with so few passes, it must be the skill lies in assesing how to creatively use the available tools to get the profile with the fewest passe's? I've never done any with power tool's but have madejust a few simple profiles with plough plane, limited set of round and hollow's, & block planes. :D
cheers Jonathan :)
 
Pekka Huhta":fg90r8hp said:
Well now, I'm surprised. Very.

Practic'ly all of the moldings (parts I mean) seem to be like stolen from the Stanley #55 catalog.

Im sure the copyrights expired on these combinations of radii some time during the Classical period ;-)

I suppose it'd be fun on some level to make up 12m by hand, but I'm not sure I have the time or inclination! Even the originals would have been machined. Perhaps if one were making up a very short replacement section the hand method would be ideal.


The good news is the second quote came in a good bit lower than the first, so it looks like I will be getting my bolection moulding made up by a nearby joinery firm.

I hope I havent mismeasured anything... :-s

Thanks to all who gave advice and offers to help. I'll try and remember to post before and after shots of the door!
 
Scrit":1j4i2kp3 said:
so where you get this rosy picture of loads of yards with their own Thermwood CNC I really don't know.

...snip...

This is not being defensive, it's just that within the timber trades the understanding of how CNC technology works and can be applied is poor enough - outside I feel it sometimes seems to go off into fairy land at times......

Scrit

Sorry Scrit. Didn't aim to be annoying or indeed wrong. I just passed on what that yard said to me as I trecked about trying to find a non-stock (all be it simple) moulding.

I took their words on faith as they had recently cut some timber for me on the biggest scariest bandsaw I have seen. (I needed no encouragement to stand well back.) So they are no stranger to kit.

Their website even says:
How often have you spent hours of valuable time searching for a moulding to match up with an existing profile or just haven’t found a suitable moulding to satisfy your requirements?

...snip...

Fax over a drawing, or supply an existing sample, and leave the rest to us, matching non-standard mouldings is our speciality!

We can machine and copy any pattern from 0.9 mts upwards. Simply give us your template, drawing or sample and our skilled machinists will do the rest.

With over 50 machines including our state-of-the-art CNC router...

Which sounds exactly like the situation here.
 
kevinr":3bzg0iq4 said:
I just passed on what that yard said to me as I trecked about trying to find a non-stock (all be it simple) moulding.
You sort of gave the impression or so I thought that there might well be numbers of yards with this facility. In fact there are very few at all. Much more common is to find a yard with a 4-sided moulder, which is incidentally ideal for running a bolection moulding. In straight trade terms this is the simplest approach as all that is needed is the facility to grind a set of knives (no limiters on a 4-sider as it's automated feed), set-up the machine and then run the job. Many firms with a through-feed moulder possess this facility to grind their own knives, so any firm in the Yellow Pages calling itself a joinery manufacturer or profile manufacturer should be able to assist, so long as you ask the right questions. Those firms might well have a bolection moulding similar enough to do the job as well, but they aren't timber merchants in the conventional sense, either. Even Travis-Perkins oiwns a subsidiary which does this sort of work.

My feeling is that using a CNC router for this would be technical overkill (as is trying to charge £350 BTW). With a 4-sided moulder you stuff rough sawn material in one end and get planed and profiled stuff out the other and with 5-, 6- and 7-head machines it is even possible to run the back rebate in the same pass, and at an investment of under £50k (just).

Scrit
 
One possible way to tell if the moulding is made up of one piece on your neighbours door is the pins used to fix it in place. Your photo would suggest just one fixing through the roundover section into the door stile. Have a look at the rest of the moulding to see where the pins have been placed.
 
Well I finally got the moulding and a DW712 (very nice), so here the promised pics of the work done on the door:

Here's a couple of bits of moulding plonked on the door to see how they looked:
Photo-0011.jpg


In progress with 5 out of 6 of the panels done:
Photo-0021.jpg


Third and final(!) coat of paint over two coats of undercoat (sheesh):
Photo-0044-1.jpg


It's DIY rather than furniture making... but it does involve wood ;)
 
The moulding is definitely different from the original - which seems deeper to my eyes, now that I can compare them. I reckon any mistakes in the moulding are the result of the fairly faithful translation of my drawing. :)

Fingers crossed it doesnt all warp over the next few days!
 
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