Running electrics - sparks are divided on what need doing.

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Joe Shmoe

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Hi, I'm after some electrical advice, as I've had three electricians round to quote for running power to my new outbuilding and they are all saying something completely different, so a little extra advice from people without a monetary incentive to influence them, won't hurt. :D

A few years ago, when I got a complete new house rewire and before all the plastering and boxing was completed, I asked the sparky to add an extra cable from the consumer unit to an easily accessible area of the house, so that I could run power to a future outbuilding years down the line. I didn't check he did this at the time, but it appears he has done so as looking inside the consumer unit, there is some T+E that isn't connected to a breaker, just coiled up neat with SHED written on it. This cable appears (impossible to check visually as everything is sealed in wall) to run a few meters away to an accessible area, where it terminates with nothing connected, just a few meters coiled up neatly, apparently ready to be connected to SWA for the outside part of the run.

I also have existing power to another shed which is 10m away from the house. It's connected to a breaker in the house consumer unit and has B20 written on it. The T+E cable that it's connected to is much thicker than the spare cable the sparky installed for the future shed, which is concerning.

Now the run to the new outbuilding is 50m from the house, or by spurring off the other shed in which case the run would be 40m. I have some 4core SWA (I know only 3core is needed) that I was given for free and hoped to use, which I explained to the three electricians I've spoken to so far. They asked what I will be using in the new shed, I said 8 LED downlights, an LED security light, and probably a TV, computer and General MAN-cave stuff.

One spark is saying the 4core SWA size is fine (I'm not sure if it's 4mm or 6mm), but it's not long enough to reach the house, so they were going to spur off an existing RCD in a shed only 40m away from the new outbuilding. They seem quite happy this will be fine, and also no earth rod needed.

A second spark says that he is happy spurring off the nearer shed, but the free SWA I have is not big enough to cope with the voltage drop and wants to install a larger one and also put in an earthing rod next to the new shed.

The third spark says the spurring off the RCD in another shed is not acceptable and wants to bring a bigger SWA straight back to the house consumer unit, to allow for voltage drop. Also no additional earth rod needed.


First, how can I determine if a larger SWA is needed as there is split decision on this?

Second, how can I detemine if it will be acceptable to spur from existing shed or if it truly needs to come back to the house consumer unit?

Third, if it does need to come back to the house consumer unit, can it be connected via the future spare cable the original sparky installed, or will it mean removing all the plaster to gain access. I'm concerned as the future cable is much smaller than the cable used for the other shed. Therefore, what's the point in using larger SWA if it's going to terminate to three meters of smaller T+E?


I also wonder why such a massive SWA is needed. I've been running a small TV, and chop saws, radio etc using a 50m extension lead from the existing shed without any issues. I know the Sparks want to do a proper job an using a thick SWA back to the house with eliminate any problems, but I'm the one that has to foot the bill for the cable and the installation and to be honest, the quotes have been horrendous and I can't work out if that's what sparks charge or they are taking the Micky. One of them itemised the supply and clipping of the larger SWA to the fence at £455. A quick Google shows the SWA is £150 so essentially he is trying to charge £300 to clip a cable which is no more than 30mins work. We all have to make a living, and I'm paying for their expertise, but that is insulting in my mind.
 
Recommended volt drop (from the consumer unit to the point in question) for sockets is 5% for sockets and 3% for lighting. So part of the question of of what thickness cable and whether you can take a supply from the other shed is... what load is typical in the first shed and what volt drop that causes, followed by any additional loads in the second shed and the subsequent drop between the two sheds. How the loading is assessed is not an exact science and depends on how the use of each shed is understood. As for having a short piece of thinner t&e feeding a thick armoured - that's fine as long as the t&e is sufficient for the load current. Earth rod? there are some circumstances when exporting a TNC-S earth (supplied by the electricity distributor) is not a good idea - in which case an independent TT earth rod can be preferrable - but probably not necessary for a man cave. As for the SWA installation time and costs....1) clipping to temporary structures (fence) is not recommended, and 2) doing a tidy swa install is not such a quick job.

Maybe find an electrician you can work with and offer that you do the cable fitting slog (to their spec) and they do the connection testing and certification.

Dee

Edit PS... don't know where you're located, but electrician rates vary greatly by area. My current charges are £250 per day, and a typical outbuilding supply plus a couple of lights and sockets (excluding trench dig and fill times) is about 1 day.
 
Does this need signing off by the local building control officer if so check with them what they would require .
 
Make sure your sparky can sign off Part P without building regs involvement. Building control charge an arm and a leg for this in some places.
Make sure whoever you appoint has a clear understanding of the load that will be applied: so tot up all the kit you could possibly use. The incremental cost of putting in heavier cable is usually not huge.
Dee J's advice re cable yourself is good: I have done all electrics in my workshop and run all cabling. I agreed the design and cable specs with electrician first, on site, and he was totally happy for me to do all the work, him to do final connection and sign off. He does other work for me and does not try to rip me off. What I am saying is choose the bloke you like best and don't quibble too much if the price difference on quotes is not large.

Personally I would pick an electrician who gives me a feeling that he knows what he is talking about, up to date on current regs, and is willing to be transparent on material sourcing and prices. I can buy at trade prices too: maybe you can as well.

If you can, as Dee J said, try to avoid clipping cable to fence. Better to do a proper job if you can and trench it. Tends to result in shorter and safer runs.
 
Positively identify what type of supply you have, as DeeJ said this has bearing. Compare what you have with image in link below.
http://highlyrecommended-electricians.c ... tns-tt.jpg

Ditch the "new shed " feed in the consumer unit.
Install suitable apparatus to allow a new dedicated supply to be run to the new shed.

Use the largest SWA you can afford bearing in mind the applicable load and voltage drop. Use this calculator below.
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/ ... eDrop.html

Don't discount the use of an overhead supply. Often forgotten about but can be very useful in established gardens.
 
just a question if you install a earth rod at the shed and use the swa as a earth conductor could you not double up on the live and neutral ( with correct colour sleeves ) and have half the volt drop.
 
OLD":adc4k3qt said:
just a question if you install a earth rod at the shed and use the swa as a earth conductor could you not double up on the live and neutral ( with correct colour sleeves ) and have half the volt drop.
Two answers... 1) If you want to use the suppliers earth then the cable armour (correctly terminated) may well be sufficient as the earth conductor.
2) If you use an earth rod and achieve the correct Impedance for independent TT earthing then there is no need for an earth conductor at all - except to earth the armour at the supply end.

As for doubling up the conductors to reduce volt drop - yes that would be fine as long as everything is clearly labelled and documented. I wouldn't double up conductors for current carrying capacity - but in your case - where each conductor can individually carry the current safely then doubling up to reduce volt drop is fine.

Dee
 
Hi, thanks for all the informative responses, especially Dee.

I think I'd like to use a bigger SWA to avoid any potential supply issues down the line, and ideally use connect it via the T+E that's already in place to save decorating and making good.

How can I determine if the small piece of T+E is sufficient for the load?

I know the qualified electricians would be able to tell, but I'd like to know for myself to ensure everything is being done properly and only paying for what is actually required.
 
Bare the end of it see if it's one core/strand or several per conductor. Check the outer sheath, it might be embossed with its size.
Take a pic and post it here, we might be able to identify it.
 
Snip a short sample of your cable and take it to a diy store or wholesalers and you'll soon identify the size. As a rough guide 2.5 square mm 20Amps, 6 square mm 32Amps. The actual current permissible varies according to how the cable is installed - but that's a good starting point.
 
First off, I'm not an electrician but have done plenty of wiring and if extensive get it checked and certified by electrician. Extended our garage recently to gain work space and installed an RCD protected consumer unit, several power circuits 16amp and 13amp and of course lights. Existing supply, around 30 metre run is in 2.5mm, with the last 5 metres or so from the house in underground armoured. Although I have some 4mm to uprate it (when I get around to it) I've had no problems whatsoever running 10" table saw, BS, PT etc.

Cable size calculator for different loads and runs is here - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/ ... Cable+Size
 
I don't know what it is with the trade but it seems if you ask 10 electricians how to do a job you'll get 11 different answers! :lol: Actually I do know who's fault it is, it's the IEE, they keep changing the regs all the time! :roll: I'm surprised they haven't brought in cross bonding to the wood in timber framed houses?! :lol:
 
woodpig":2s6ejdof said:
I don't know what it is with the trade but it seems if you ask 10 electricians how to do a job you'll get 11 different answers! :lol: Actually I do know who's fault it is, it's the IEE, they keep changing the regs all the time! :roll: I'm surprised they haven't brought in cross bonding to the wood in timber framed houses?! :lol:
And ask 10 woodworkers how to sharpen a chisel ... how many answers do you get :wink:
 

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