router failure in router tables

[Paul Chapman]

DeWalt (and probably Elu before them) used to sell a motor-only router.

They don't any more, from a quick look at their website.

It's still available http://www.dewalt.co.uk/attachments/pro ... tno/DW627/

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jake]

Well found, Paul!

I don't think it will will meet the budgetary requirements...

 

[Chris Knight]

The spec on that motor shows just how inefficient our machines are - 2000 watts input and only 1200 out!

 

[p111dom]

not producing or fitting the parts that I listed would logically reduce the basic part,
Roy.

You would think that but it's all about quantity of production. Take your average Ford Focus. Electric windows, mirrors, air con, airbags etc etc and all for £15000. Then look at a smaller manufacturer like Lotus. The Elise has none of the above and yet sells for £30000. Yes, you are paying a certain premuim for the Lotus badge but the bulk of the price differential is in the fact that, compared to the Focus, they don't produce or sell as many. It's essentially a car without all the bells and whistles and yet costs double the price. So buying less doesn't always mean it's cheaper.

As for getting back on topic, I've seen the Fox in the flesh in a shop in the centre of York. Can't remember the name of the shop but as for the machine the top and fence was very flimsy with a lot of deflection. I know it's been reviewed in BW this month. I just read the end comments in WHSmiths saying just that about the top, but that it would be fine to start with. I haven't read the main body of the article so sorry if this was said too, but I seem to remember that there was a lot of backlash on the front handle. I also can't remember seeing a height lock of any kind. There may be one, I just didn't notice one. The machine is very light so while I haven't seen it running, I would have thought there would be a fair amount of vibration. This is always touted as a plus for site use which always amuses me as this isn't by any stretch of the imagination a trade quality machine meant for site use. The moulded plactic base looks identical to the Woodstars and all the feather boards are identical so they are both presumably made in the same factory. They will most likely share some of the same components and the motor is probably the same.

On the subject of motors, a reasonable quality motor of this power and size to buy as a single purchase would be around £60-80. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be significantly cheaper when bought in bulk obviously and there's the sellers profit within that price. I would have thought this price could be as low as £30 when bought by the hundred for a small production run. I didn't look underneath the machine so haven't seen where the vents are to see if dust ingress would be just as much a problem as with a standard router.

As for a high quailty motor which is what you would need (other wise you'd be just competing with the Fox and Woodstar products) I think £100 for the motor on it's own is more realistic. If a plunge router with handles, base, depth stop etc etc is £250 then I think £100 for just the motor in a suitable casing would be very possible(if not a little unrealistic) however it would probably shoot your budget. The other option as a one off, is to buy one used from the States. I've already mentioned this before but it seems to have been missed, but all of these products exist in the US and this concept is not new at all. Porter Cable sell a multitude of motors only and while strangely they don't seem to list them on their web site at the moment, they are available. A quick search on ebay shows something like this.

While the exchange rate isn't what it was, pound against the dollar, the US probably has the most experience at this sort of product. It would be wise to draw on their R&D IMO. This product isn't just suitable for purpose it's made directly for this purpose so there's virtually a guarantee of good performance. Porter Cable has a very good reputation for quality but isn't widely available in the UK. You could buy this one used at a reasonably small outlay.

As for the cage I don't know what to say about this. Like I said I made my own router lift and it was a huge hassle and ended up being very expensive and that was just in materials. The Jessems one shown has a lot of machined aluminium parts. They are all anodised on top and the quality is top notch. While I wouldn't be bothered about the colour I certainly would want something just as solid. To make this to an "as finished" standard would require significant machining skill and a lot of man hours. They will use castings and then machine the final dimensions with CNC very quickly and accurately at the factory and it probably would cost £100 to make it this way in the UK. Without this level of investment and larger production run environment I just don't think you could get anywhere near the £200 price tag they sell it for, so having been there personally I would just keep saving if I was adamant I wanted to go down that route. You could make something less substantial but go too far and you're again competing with the Fox and Woodstar.

I am a little confused by your wish to create a quality item at a low price. Does that mean you want to create something better than the Woodstar but at a cheaper price still? Or are you looking to obtain a more middle ground of say £200. I think you said your budget was £150 including extraction. Does this mean you need an extractor in this price or just the facility to extract ie an extraction port on the machine?

One final point is that of maintenance. With my Trend and probably your Freud all of the spares are available. If your motor burns out then you can buy a replacement. I think the T11 motor is about £138 on it's own. I doubt the same would be ture of the Woodstar of the Fox. If money is a big issue why not just wait for it to fail and then get it repaired.

 

[ronhayles]

dom.. you have paraphrased nearly all my conclusions and I really appreciate your interest and concerns and your research on my behalf. I am disabled and need to use a car where ever. To bring a car across to mainland England sets me back over eighty pounds... not the sort of money I would want to use to visit an outlet selling the sort of machines we are discussing. As a DIY nutcase I look for ways to do for myself. The cage I envisage could be produced by my toolmaker mate in his extensive workshop for peanuts. Its the motor I need to source and you guys have been marvelous in clarifying the posibilities. Being of a mindset, I might just do the DIY route. For what I am doing in my workshop, it doesn't have to be super setup. There is no rush as I've a long list written by the missus of jobs to be done in the garden. There again ernie or the lottery mighy come up. At my age everything is a lottery so it's simply not worth getting steamed up about anything. It's been fun sharing this forum with you guys and I will appreciate any further thoughts you have on my problem. For now its start crossing off those jobs on that list regards Ron

 

[ronhayles]

Dom..Have just followed up your link to E.BAy and a motor like this excites me. You mentioned R&M and the something following. Can you explain what this is. Would it be practical to import from U.S. Ron

 

[p111dom]

Dom..Have just followed up your link to E.BAy and a motor like this excites me. You mentioned R&M and the something following. Can you explain what this is. Would it be practical to import from U.S. Ron

R&M? I put R&D as in research an development. Just saying that in buying a motor designed for this purpose to let the manufacturer take the hit on these costs. IMO means In My Opinion. So the sentence would read "It would be wise to draw on their research and development in my opinion."

As for importing the jury is out. There are many on this forum who have done it with sucess. I'm not agaist it but whenever I've looked into it the cost has ended up being pretty close to buying over here. I origionally looked at importing a Woodpeckers unilift but after shipping the cost was actually more. Again the current pound against the Dollar makes it worse still. There are others who cold advise you on the import duty costs. I had a quote for $100 for shipping. It was a reasonable heavy item and at the time you were getting nearly 2 dollars to the pound so it would have been about £50. However now it's only 1.5 dollars to the pound. Presuming the motor goes for $60 and the shipping is $100 that would cost you about £105 ish. Then there's import duty which the % I can't remember. Your location might have differing rates on duty. That said for £100 or so you'd get a top quality motor with speed control, made for exactly that purpose and better in quality that the Fox or Woodstar options. That would leave £50 for the cage which I'm not sure you could do. I think materials for my lift were about £60-80 and to be honnest it wasn't great. Better than not having one but like I said in retrospect I think I'd buy a lift if I were in that situation again. Then there's also the need for a 110v box if you don't already have one but that's not a huge deal, £10 from a boot sale. Then theres the time and hassle etc. While you're importing the motor you could also imort the lift. It shouldn't add alot to the shipping cost and over there the lift is about $200 so that's about £133. That would be £240 plus £10 for the box but for £250, thats a good price for probably one of the best set ups you could get.

Obviously then you need to make a table. Mine cost £200 in materials alone buy was well worth it. I made my own fence to save money and it's been fine. Many on this forum rate the Incra fence system. The quality is excellent and you can do things with it simple not possible without. But that's more money again. My T11 was £234 but is a little bit more expensive these days so total for my set up was £434. That sounds expensive but when you see what it can do, really it's not.

 

[ronhayles]

Thanks for the explanation. Too wet in the garden so spent an hour on Porter Cable on Amazon..Makes you spit when you see what is available over there. 3hp motor for about £80. I have a 112 volt trans so no problem. Having done your own I can understand you warning me of the pitfalls but I like a challenge and I do have the backup of my mate who is capable of producing the necessary for the cage and the lift For health reasons, I aim for a bench table. I have the insert plate and Axminster's cast unit to fix the fence to or I can just transfer from my present set up. I am past big projects..they go to my brother, a trained woodworker. I simply like to play with wood making small boxes and wall and mantle clocks. maximum timber 3/4 inch thick. I source reclaimed timber and have plenty to keep me going. I picked up a report from another thread on our Forum. He imported a Porter unit but he had relatives in the States. I'm not so lucky. Another report told that Porter units available in this country are modifies for 240v and this affects the speeds. I don't know how relevant this is. I love living on our Island but it can be so limiting and frustrating at times like this. I'm chasing a Camera tripod. There is the choice of just one manufacturer here, but we have the sea to drown our sorrows by regards Ron

 

[ian currie]

Hi gents. Ron really stirred up a hornets nest eh?.
Whilst you guys have been talkin i've been giving the Woodstar a thrashing. and some of you may be surprised but its turned out to be an great little tool, even used semi-professionally.

Mated with a set of Trend half inch cutters it will do a splendid job.

I've used it on Hardwood, softwood and MDF with very good results.

My opinion is that its a bargain at £160 and with the benefit of hindsight i would have willingly paid nearer £250 ! its that good !

My early problem was my over enthusiastic son not giving it a breather, pushing metre after metre of oak through it.

There are a few bits of advice i can offer if anyone gets serious about trying one like(beware not to buy the older model, not many left on offer now)and you should connect a powerful vac to its port etc etc. e.mail me if needed ([email protected])

MY ADVICE RON IS GET A WOODSTAR and stop messing about.

all the best
ian
I'm in Kidderminster if anyone wants to try the beast. Nb (the FOX is a toy compared to the Woodstar)

 

[ronhayles]

Thanks for the update Ian. Hornets!!!..Naaaah. baa lambs.... bleating.. It's all my fault. Should have simply asked for reviews of the Woodstar and NOT mention that my previous router had failed due to dust ingress. Up sufaced the...jumpie to conclusions clan...except that it was the manufacturer who gave the diagnosis. Should have also mentioned that I have been producing sawdust since the end of the last war!! For reasons that are beyond simple opinion, I need a table based router. Then wondered if anyone else had thought of a dedicated motor, and yes, they had. Good news...however..your report of the Woodstar has taken me out of dreamland and into realising that this machine will do me nicely. Over the years of buying innovative tools, I have reached the conclusion to let others discover any potential weaknesses that need sorting before parting with my money...So, Yes...I will confound the doubters and get a Woodster but I will wait a while just to make sure it doesn't turn up in Santa's stocking. Wish I was in your region, Ian. Would love to come and smell your sawdust. You did raise the issue of dealing with the resulting dust. You have obviously sorted this. I would be grateful if you would indulge me with your method. Thanks again..regards Ron.

 

[ivan]

Yes. Ron, we have many and varied wonderful UK apple varieties. I used to work in Kent for the day job, helping develop farm businesses, living in Faversham close to Brogdale. Unfortuately growers in Kent were generally small scale and minds fixed in traditional wholesale auction markets. They resented the discipline required for coperative marketing. The majority of the industry was thus its own worst enemy and it declined steadily. There are a few exeptions, but not many!
Supermarkets are often blamed for the demise of this or that; however they offer shelf space to what sells. Customers preferred what they saw as a a nicer looking apple, and in general, (ie apart from Cox) it wasn't UK grown. It was the great British housewife who was making her choice, and the UK growers who pretended it wasn't happening.

 

[ronhayles]

Hi Ivan. I don't blame the supermarkets for doing what gives them a profit. I know that Brogdale and Wisley did their darndest to pursuade the supermarkets to support local fruit. French apples come into season four weeks before our apples. The housewife, seeing these, became used to buying them, so why should the supermarkets change suppliers. Without english apples available it is simple to then say that the customer prefers the french. As for appearances, I have twelve english apple varieties in my garden and I can be sure that they match anything that the french can produce in size and quality. As for flavour, the french apples are simply bland compared to the english apple that takes longer to mature and produces more sugar content. I shall be very sad when my own supply runs out and I am back to foreign fruit. As you so rightly say, it is up to the producer to do their part in producing what the customer wants. I've not been Kent way for several years now. It was a yearly trip to Brogdale and not just for the apples. regards Ron.

 

[ronhayles]

have just beeen reading through this forum regarding the Woodstar shaper. can't believe I was so bolshy. Must have been the depressives. However!! am just about to order the woodstar. My diy scheme came to naught because my mate had to cope with his wife's terminal illness. Isn't age a real bore. Any comments or any updates or even a movement towards a dedicted router unit for under table use. Ron