Router Collets - now SUCCESS! (+ UKW tribute)

[GLFaria]

Long story short, the collet as advertised by Amazon UK is not being sold by them, it's being sold by someone else, and Amazon are simply carrying that other sellers advert (I didn't know they did that).

Common Amazon practice, I guess for two reasons (there may be more):
- It extends the range of products available without increasing immeasurably the inventories
- They get paid for the advertising...

But eventually I was able to get direct to the seller's website on line, and was even able to order the collet. Great! But when I came to pay it seems that this particular seller will not send to Switzerland (or it seems anywhere else "overseas")! So the transaction didn't complete. (So why bother with a website and E-bay I ask myself)?

That also happens for certain items, notably DVDs and books, also some tools, for several countries outsider the UK, or outside the US for that matter.
Not the same items for every country, though, so my guess is that there may be some sort comercial agreements in force for some areas that precludes the seller or some other agent from selling directly to a customer in that specific country or geographical area.
But, as aid say, this is just my guess. It has happened to me on several occasions (and I had recourse to the same procedure you did -ordering through an "intermediary" in the UK...)
...
AES

G.
Edit: had forgotten to write "outside"

 

[Myfordman]

Should you need the contact details, Ebay has them as

Boyd McEwen
Bigger Savings Ltd c/o G A Offices
Birds Royd Lane
Brighouse
West Yorkshire
HD6 1LQ
United Kingdom

Phone:0845|5550505
Email:[email protected]
VAT number: UK 970 4030 44

Note that ebay always publishes the contact details of businesses trading with them.

 

[AES]

Excellent Myfordman, thanks a lot.

Just as a matter of interest, how did you get that info? I tried evyerthing!

Krgds
AES

 

[n0legs]

Hope it works out for you, glad I was able to help

 

[Steve Maskery]

Aren't NMA Agencies, UK Scheppach distributors, located in the vicinity?

 

[mseries]

Aren't NMA Agencies, UK Scheppach distributors, located in the vicinity?

yes. Woodster, Scheppach, Kity & Mafell. Suspiciously close. I pass through brighouse daily, next time I am not on the train i might take a detour and have a look. Myford and RDG are close to where I work too

 

[Myfordman]

Excellent Myfordman, thanks a lot.

Just as a matter of interest, how did you get that info? I tried evyerthing!

Krgds
AES

It is on every item page from a business seller - certainly in UK

Scroll down to just below the last part of the item description and click on contact details.

 

[AES]

Thanks Myfordman, I've had a really good look (on the link as posted by RogerP above) but just couldn't find any seller details as you posted, nor a link to click for that info.

However, I MAY not be blind! I note that right down the bottom of the page there are several adverts, all in German, so perhaps the fact that I'm looking at the page from a laptop here at home (Switzerland), using a Swiss ISP, means that I'm seeing something different to what would happen if I viewed from UK?

Dunno, that's just a guess, but thanks for posting the seller info anyway, that's the main thing for me right now.

Krgds
AES

 

[Myfordman]

Curious. If I search for the item on Swiss Ebay (http://www.ebay.ch) I get the full vendor detail without having to click a link so even more obvious than http://www.ebay.co.uk

this is the link to the Swiss page i see

http://www.ebay.ch/itm/321061931177?ru= ... 26_rdc%3D1



I can understand that ebay might put up different adverts according to your IP address (which it will ue to estimate your location) but I'm surprised it would change the main content?

 

[AES]

Thanks again Myforman. When I follow the link you gave me (your post just above this), the page is almost completely different to the link that Roger gave yesterday. Both have the same seller name ("Bigger Savings") and, of course, the same collet & picture, but otherwise just about everything else apart from the heading (in English in both cases) is different. In your link everything is in German, in Roger's, it's all English. And most importantly, just as you say, the seller details are plain to see in your link, in Roger's they aren't there at all.

"Funny", and I don't pretend to understand it.

If (a big IF!) I can do it I'll try to post a screen shots of both pages in a minute, but if not, no problem, I have the info now, that's the main thing.

Thanks once more.

Krgds
AES

 

[Richard S]

I've dealt with Bigger Savings in the past and found them to decent people to do business with, I seem to recall that they have a connection to NMA Agencies, if I remember correctly one of them used to work for NMA but it was a few years ago and it's all a bit hazy now.

 

[AES]

Yesterday was my birthday (they seem to come around more and more often these days).

Today a small post packet arrived from UK. Inside was my new Router collet (see my original query back on P 1 above).

Question was, "Would it fit the router?"; if so "Was it a 12 mm or a 12.7 mm collet?"; And which should I check first, machine or router bit?

In fact, MANY thanks to the members who helped me so much (listed above - thanks gents), I now have a Router with 2 collets that DO fit, one that takes bits with 12 mm shafts, one that takes bits with 12.7 mm (half inch) shafts. WOW! "My cup runneth over"¨

Thanks to everyone for their help - really the people on this Forum can do ANYTHING!

My tribute:

AES

MORE than the cat's pyjamas

 

[rafezetter]

That's an ummmm unusual tribute.... I'm guessing it's the feline version of the Dog's Bol....... ?

 

[siggy_7]

Glad the OP got his problem sorted. I'd like to pick up on a technicality though...

A 12mm collet shouldn't accept a 1/2" shaft. A 1/2" collet shouldn't grip a 12mm shaft.
A gripping range of about 1mm is not acceptable - if a collet does stand it, you should bin it (the collet, I mean)

This depends on the collet design. I agree that the majority of router collets I have seen are designed to give a good holding force over a very narrow diameter range. Commonly, the collets are made with the slits in one end, like this:

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-325628/trend-50475045-router-collet-for-ryobi-routers.html

For holding something of a known, consistent diameter (like good quality bit shanks) this sort of design is ok, although it's not a brilliant system. The collet is only pinching down at one end and is relatively inflexible, so the grip is very dependent on the diameter of the shank being within a narrow range.

Other collet designs are able to offer good clamping over a much wider range. The very widely used ER collets are a good example of this. Notice on these how the slits run most of the length of the collet and alternate from both ends:

http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=ER20-M-C

These collets will clamp effectively over a much wider range, because the slits give the collet body a much greater range of movement and allow the whole length of the collet to close up on the shankm, rather than pinching at one end. ER20 collets have a 1mm range as an example. I have seen this design of collet on some better routers - Festool amongst others use this design I believe. Whether the spindle and collet geometry is designed to offer the same versatility as an ER collet I don't know - but this collet design will certainly give better grip and at least a chance of holding under-sized shanks better. A single 12-13mm ER20 collet has the range to grip both a 12mm and 12.7mm shank.

 

[AES]

Interesting points you raise siggy - 7.

"However", I quote you:
Other collet designs are able to offer good clamping over a much wider range. The very widely used ER collets are a good example of this. Notice on these how the slits run most of the length of the collet and alternate from both ends:


If you look at the pic of the inside of my collet on page 1 of this thread you'll see that my particular collet is designed pretty much as you say, and as you have linked to for the "engineering collet" in terms of slots "above & below".

BUT you'll also see from the dimensions I quote on page 1 that the o/a height of my particular collet is only 22 mm - i.e. not a huge gripping area. I agree I have seen collets on other routers longer than mine, but have never looked closely, so am not sure how they compare for "gripping area" and length and number of slots.

But one thing is for sure, of all the router collets I tried in my initial search described on page 1 (Festool, Bosch, Dewalt) ALL took a router bit with a 12 mm shaft but NONE could take a bit with a 12.7 mm shaft (half inch) - the collets just wouldn't open up far enough. AND the new collet I now have, which does take a 12.7 shaft will NOT close down fully on my bits with 12 mm shafts.

In fact the Festool dealer guy told me that in UK, Festool routers come with half inch collets as standard, but over here (Switzerland) they have 12 mm collets as standard (when not 8 mm, as on the smaller models).

One further absolute fact, the "new" AEG router on offer here (German name but now Chinese owned I believe - and also selling what look like identical routers under the Rigid label) do offer as options, collets to accept 6 mm, 6.35 mm (quarter inch), 8 mm, 12 mm, and 12.7 mm (half inch) diameters. It really does seem as though we're in an area here where there are different "standards" when it comes to router bit shafts, Imperial for the US & Canada, part Imperial/part metric for the UK, and mainly metric only for "us" over here in "mainland Europe"!

There's also a very interesting discussion about the difference between woodworking router collets and "engineering" collets over on the General Metalworking section here, and while I do not pretend to understand these differences, I did suggest there that "engineering" collets are different (and have a wider diameter range on the nominal size) because A) "engineering" collets turn MUCH slower that woodwork router collets (a factor of up to 10X); and B) in normal use the work held in an "engineering" collet is being REDUCED in diameter, whereas in a woodwork router we are often turning a bit which has a cutter diameter much LARGER than the shaft.

At least one poster there disagreed with me, especially about the speed difference being a factor, and I certainly do not KNOW anything about these differences for sure, it's all just "logical guess work" by me. Probably woodwork router collets just "growed how they are like Topsy" and we'll never really know.

The one important thing I've learnt out of all this is that there ARE differences between the two different types of collet, and in the case of wood work routers, one needs a collet which EXACTLY matches the nominal bit shaft diameter.

Cheers
AES

 

[siggy_7]

Fair enough. As I said, the alternate design with the long slits doesn't on its own guarantee a wide clamping range. But I can confirm that ER collets are suitable for routers and give good grip - Axminster sell a router bit extension using this collet design which I use with success, and some spindles used in CNC routing machines (where loads can be much higher than in manual routers) use these collet types also.

 

[AES]

Interesting siggy, thanks.

Purely for interest, I still wonder why wood work router collets are different to, say, ER 32 collets. Surely "engineering" collets have been around for a lot longer than wood work routers (? my guess) so when engineers/companies first developed wood work routers I wonder why they "re-invented the wheel" when a perfectly acceptable collet series already existed?

Come to that, why bother with collets at all with woodwork routers? Why not just a male threaded shaft for the bits (with a female thread inside the main shaft of the router)? If the original idea was to make routers and bits interchangeable it hasn't worked all that well has it?

But I also wonder how you use an "engineering" collet on a woodworking router - surely the inner face of the main shaft of the router must have a taper in it (to make the collet close properly)?

Anyway, it seems to me that whatever the back ground reasons may be, it's just another one of these things that one just has "to know", although going back to my very first post, it's yet another reason for not buying no-name cheapo tools (if only I could justify the budget for Festool tools)!

But at least I've now learnt something else (which, when you're my age, must be counted as a definite result)!

Cheers again

AES

 

[chaoticbob]

In fact ER series collets have only been around since the early 1970's - I guess woodworking routers antedate that by some margin! I too have wondered why routers haven't adopted the system, which is far more versatile than the fixed size collets. I suppose it's just inertia - it's always been that way, everyone has standard size bits, so why change...
I have the Axminster ER20 extender which is just a half inch parallel shank with the collet chuck on the end, so it goes in the half inch collet supplied with the router. It is pretty much permanently in place on my crappy Erbauer machine, means I can mount metalworking bits of whatever diameter when need arises.
Regards, Robin.

 

[AES]

Oh, OK, that may be so for the ER series collets, I really don't know. But if (a big IF!) my memory serves, my Dad had a set of collets (he called them collet chucks) for his Myford 7 and that was in the late '40s when I was just a kid.

Anyway, all interesting stuff. "Makes yer fink dunnit?"

AES

 

[AES]

But thinking about it overnight, perhaps my Dad didn't have them, and perhaps collets (for lathes) are a newer idea than I thought. I'm really not sure.



AES