Rough finish round knots when planing? Avoidable?

[MikeG.]

Stick to Record, Stanley, Marples or Clifton. Don't waste money on Silverline.

 

[El Barto]

Here are a few I found really quickly:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 1935724848

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2378836493

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2957856913

Records seem to go for cheaper than Stanleys, I suppose because they’re not talked up as much by Sellers and the like. But I love my Record 5 1/2. I’m basically still a beginner and found the longer base and weight of the 5 much more comfortable than the 4.

 

[ED65]

Would that be preferable to a cheap silverline from toolstation? Theyre about the same price, all in - ie about £15.

Impossible to say without knowledge of the general standard of Span planes. And while it looks okay to me any brand can have individual planes that are sub-par so buying on ebay is always a risk.

Some chance of a lemon with a Silverline of course, but much easier to return to Toolstation or Amazon if you're unlucky.

A few selling points worth noting: it'll be brand new obviously, brass nuts and fittings and a type of rosewood for the handles. Here's Paul Sellers talking the Silverline up, Two Tested Tools to Start Out and Finish With. Just to mention, he's no apologist for Silverline, he lambastes them for their ridiculously bad spokeshave on another page of his site.

 

[Mr T]

So a scan of ebay shows this -

Would that be preferable to a cheap silverline from toolstation? Theyre about the same price, all in - ie about £15.

The plane pictured has a couple of features I would avoid. Firstly the pressed steel adjustment lever, this often becomes worn at the blade end making adjustment difficult, secondly the two part yoke for the depth adjustment. Sometimes the parts can come apart, again making adjustment difficult. I have not come across Span planes but suspect they are not very good quality. I buy a couple of planes a month on ebay for my courses and swear by older Record and Stanley, especially Record.

By the way, what's so great about rosewood handles, especially on new budget planes where the provenance of the wood may be suspect.

Chris

 

[Just4Fun]

The plane pictured has a couple of features I would avoid. Firstly the pressed steel adjustment lever, this often becomes worn at the blade end making adjustment difficult, secondly the two part yoke for the depth adjustment. Sometimes the parts can come apart, again making adjustment difficult.

Very good. It is great to see some definite reasons why one plane is not so good as another rather than subjective comments amounting to "it feels better". I have never understood why it would be better to go for an expensive plane rather than a cheapie, and these comments give me some idea. However, I did not understand what you mean by "two part yoke for the depth adjustment". Can you clarify that please?

 

[julianf]

Thank you.

And for my next question -

When im looking on ebay, i see items advertised as "smoothing plane", and some as just "plane", and others as "jack plane", and, to the untrained eye... well, im cautious as to buying the wrong thing.

Is there a specific feature that makes a unit a "smoothing plane" that i can look for?

 

[MikeG.]

No. Look at the size only. A number 4 or 5 can be made to perform all the different functions. Just don't get something with a corrugated blade or base.

 

[Mr T]

However, I did not understand what you mean by "two part yoke for the depth adjustment". Can you clarify that please?

The yoke is the bit that links the adjusting wheel with the blade/chip breaker assembly. In earlier planes this was cast as a single piece. When Stanley and Record started cost cutting they used a two part fabricated yoke which can have the poroblems I mentioned. Another indicater of quality is whether there is an adjusting screw for the frog position. The frog is the unit the blade and chip braker is clamped to. There should be an adjusting screw at the back below the blade depth adjuster. On chep planes this is often omitted making it difficult to position the frog accurately.

Chris

 

[El Barto]

Thank you.

And for my next question -

When im looking on ebay, i see items advertised as "smoothing plane", and some as just "plane", and others as "jack plane", and, to the untrained eye... well, im cautious as to buying the wrong thing.

Is there a specific feature that makes a unit a "smoothing plane" that i can look for?

You'll often see a No. 4 referred to as a smoothing plane and a 5 as a jack plane. Either of them could be used as a smoothing plane. But like MikeG said, just look at the numbers.

 

[ED65]

The plane pictured has a couple of features I would avoid. Firstly the pressed steel adjustment lever, this often becomes worn at the blade end making adjustment difficult, secondly the two part yoke for the depth adjustment. Sometimes the parts can come apart, again making adjustment difficult.

Very good. It is great to see some definite reasons why one plane is not so good as another rather than subjective comments amounting to "it feels better". I have never understood why it would be better to go for an expensive plane rather than a cheapie, and these comments give me some idea.

Not to be contrary but I have to disagree that this is a feature that you should use to rule out a plane. Yes the two-part steel versions were most definitely a cost-cutting measure when introduced, but they've been around for a very long time now and have proven themselves up to the job. And even though they can separate as Chris says this is easily fixed with one drop of glue, and I actually don't think they're the inferior choice. In fact they have certain advantages over (most) cast ones in that they're not a brittle material so there's some scope for adjustment to reduce what is called 'slop' or 'backlash' in the Bailey mechanism, if you wish to do so.

We're getting way off the original topic here so a good place to ask about this, or any other plane features, is the Hand Tools forum if you want to delve into this further.

 

[julianf]

So, following advice here, i went on ebay and acquired a Stanley 4 1/2.

Now that it is here, the level of pitting on the iron is of some concern to me.






Whoever sharpened the blade last time has added some bevel to the back of the blade to avoid the pitting, but a lot of it is pretty deep (deep enough to drag the item using your fingernail, esp in that crater about 2/3rs along the width)

(the images get larger if you click them - i think)



The cap iron is a bit rippled, but i doubt that matters.

Apart from a bit of a chip on the edge (which i hardly think matters to someone of my skill level!) the rest of the unit is not bad. Indeed, i think someone may well have done some quick "prettying" of it prior to sale.







Now i really dont need things perfect - all i want to do is shave wood - i dont really care about looks, just function.

The ebay seller is ok - his ad stated "no pitting" and i sent him a pleasant mail, and he is happy to take it back, but id rather just resolve it, if that is possible.

It seems like i would always need to grind a bevel to the back side of the blade on this one. I think that the pitting is probably too deep to simply take the whole surface back.

What do you think?

 

[ED65]

I presume you're already in the know about this but just in case not, pitting on the top of the iron (back from the bevel) is of no concern. Pitting on the bevel itself is also of no concern since sharpening will naturally get rid of any amount of it.

Pitting on the back or flat of the iron you do have to pay attention to but at or near the edge only. Any suitable honing surface (coarse diamond plate or SiC stone, strong 80-grit paper) can deal with nearly any level of it in under 10 minutes by focussing effort just near the tip, aiming to end up with a narrow band only a few mils wide that's free from pits. In fact to begin with just a 0.5-1mm strip needs to be completely pit-free.

I can't tell for sure from the photo but close to the edge it looks like it's nearly there already.

The cap iron is a bit rippled, but i doubt that matters.

The leading edge? That does matter if you intend to use the cap iron to its full potential.

It needs to be straight and square (ish), smoothly contoured across the top and the underside of the edge flat or undercut a little so that only the leading edge contacts the back of the cutter.

Apart from a bit of a chip on the edge (which i hardly think matters to someone of my skill level!)

That hardly matters to any user, regardless of skill level It's really only a cosmetic issue.

The ebay seller is ok - his ad stated "no pitting"

Seriously?? This is what puts me off buying stuff sight-unseen!

 

[julianf]

Thank you.

Yes, i know that one side does not matter. I even looked at both sides to see if completely reversing the bevel would work but nether is great.

I watched a bunch of youtube vids, and looked on websites and the like, and the general consensus seemed to be "some pitting can be dealt with, but too much, and you may as well find a better unit"

But, being a novice, i dont know how much is too much!

The area close to the edge has been ground with a small reverse bevel to remove the pitting, but a little further back, its deeper, so, i guess, the reverse bevel would have to be deeper too.

The cap iron is rippled along its back, but not at the folded end that makes contact with the blade so id think thats ok.

The seller has actually offered me a partial refund, but my take on these things is generally "if its fit for purpose, then its fit for purpose, so a partial refund is wrong, but, if its not fit, then a partial refund wont pull it out of the scrap bin" if you see what i mean.

I guess if its fit for purpose, but just with additional work, then that's where partial refunds are valid, but im just not experienced enough to know!

The seller is pleasant enough - i dont want to "con" him by taking a partial refund if its not going to be much effort to resolve, but, at the same time, do not want to accept a partial refund if its going to cause me bother for ever after.

Really, im more interested in just getting it sorted ether way!

 

[custard]

im just not experienced enough to know!

Unless it's a very special tool I'd avoid anything with pitting, life's too short and there are plenty of better tools out there.

Read this for a practical account of removing pitting,

record-stanley-laminated-plane-irons-t106851-30.html

 

[Mr T]

That pitting is pretty heavy, the blade is fairly short. I would suggest asking for a £10 refund and using it to buy a new Stanly blade from Axminster. You will need to check the new blades when they arrive though, I sent back three out of five last month because they weren't flat enough. Working a bevel on the back to get round pitting just makes life complicated later.

Chris

 

[El Barto]

That pitting is pretty heavy, the blade is fairly short. I would suggest asking for a £10 refund and using it to buy a new Stanly blade from Axminster. You will need to check the new blades when they arrive though, I sent back three out of five last month because they weren't flat enough. Working a bevel on the back to get round pitting just makes life complicated later.

Chris

+1 on this. The blade may be fit for purpose but it wasn't as described in the listing so I'd take that partial refund!

 

[ED65]

I watched a bunch of youtube vids, and looked on websites and the like, and the general consensus seemed to be "some pitting can be dealt with, but too much, and you may as well find a better unit"

Careful what you read on the Internet :-D Yes there's lots of this about, and two very influential figures on the American side of things, Frank Klausz and Michael Dunbar, shared this view and together may be partly responsible for how commonplace the opinion is now in the US.

It's sometimes put that you can't deal with heavy/very heavy pitting (even on a relatively soft iron) but IME there's nearly no level of pitting that can't be tackled.

Other times you'll read "it's not worth your time", but obvs everyone's time is their own. What I love is that very frequently the very same people saying that will then waste 1-2 hours lapping the plane's sole and working it up to a high shine without even checking if the plane was already working well first!!

But, being a novice, i dont know how much is too much!

Well, this isn't too much:

The above iron is now sharp as you'd like and the plane performs like a champ.

And here's a before and after on another iron:

This was done without the Charlseworth ruler trick, just effort being concentrated at the tip.

Both of these were done by hand in a reasonable amount of time, with no grinder work needed.

The cap iron is rippled along its back, but not at the folded end that makes contact with the blade so id think thats ok.

Yes that's fine. I have a good number that are extremely heavily textured (on both sides) but work fine.

The seller has actually offered me a partial refund, but my take on these things is generally "if its fit for purpose, then its fit for purpose, so a partial refund is wrong, but, if its not fit, then a partial refund wont pull it out of the scrap bin" if you see what i mean.

Well a misleading description is a misleading description. I got a partial refund years ago on something because the seller (who later tried to plead ignorance) stated something in plain English that was simply not true. If they'd kept mum and not tried to over-egg the pudding they'd have been fine.

 

[julianf]

Following up this one -

I took the sellers partial refund, and purchased a new blade from axminster over the christmas break.

Im not free of issues though!

I can not work out how to back off the new blade enough. The knob is at full travel, and i cant see that moving the frog would make any difference. Im kind of confused as to what could be wrong?

 

[julianf]

...in case its not obvious, which im kind of sure it must be, i purchased the blade, cap iron set, and have the cap iron set about as close to the end of the blade (1mm or so) as seems sensible?

 

[El Barto]

It’s probably something really simple and not likely to be a fault with the plane. Some things to check: how far is the front of the frog from the mouth of the plane? Is the new iron sitting on the notch of the adjustment lever and moving freely before you cinch down the lever cap?? Are you turning the adjustment wheel the right way?