Rough finish round knots when planing? Avoidable?

[MikeG.]

Thanks, ED65. I've since experimented with this with a nasty piece of ash, and some crappy pine, using a razor sharp and well adjusted plane. I'm not convinced. I may be in Paul Seller's camp on this one, but I am going to keep trying. I have a suspicion that it would have a better chance of working with a bigger heavier plane which can plough on easier despite the increased resistance.

We're in danger of diverting a thread which is about tear-out from a thicknesser.

 

[nabs]

continuing the thread diversion!

the thing about older literature is that as soon as you start *looking* for references to using the cap-iron to help plane difficult wood then you see it everywhere - for instance it is frequently mentioned in the republished Woodworker articles from the 30s and 40s, but generally it is mentioned almost in passing and always without specific advice on what to do to get it to work.

It is interesting that it seems to have been taught inconsistently, at least over the past 3 or 4 decades (ie the period of time during which current hand-tool experts were trained) - which perhaps explains the dearth of information on forums like this until relatively recently - but isn't that just a reflection on the increased importance of using machinery (including sanders) in order to make furniture at a competitive price?

 

[ED65]

Thanks, ED65. I've since experimented with this with a nasty piece of ash, and some crappy pine, using a razor sharp and well adjusted plane. I'm not convinced. I may be in Paul Seller's camp on this one, but I am going to keep trying.

Well worth persevering I promise. There used to be a great little video from Graham Haydon where he was planing a piece of ash from hell and getting zero tearout but it's not on YouTube any longer sadly. But there must be others, and what one man can do another can do so it's definitely possible with a cap iron fettled properly so there's no clogging. For really tricky wood the cap iron should be set close enough that just a sliver of reflection from the back of the cutting iron remains, "as close as you dare" it's sometimes referred to.

I have a suspicion that it would have a better chance of working with a bigger heavier plane which can plough on easier despite the increased resistance.

Well some do use a no. 5 as their general smoother partly for this reason but it can be done with a 4, or even a 3. Smaller smoothing planes have always had a few fans and slightly undersize woodies aren't too uncommon.

We're in danger of diverting a thread which is about tear-out from a thicknesser.

Welcome to UK Workshop, the home of thread diversions since the early 00s

 

[custard]

The person that did more than anyone else to popularise the closely set cap iron is DW.

I was vaguely aware of setting a cap iron closer to the edge to cure tear out before DW's writings, but it was a theoretical thing. In practise I've never met a cabinet maker who actually did it, of course I haven't met every cabinet maker, but given that I trained as a restorer under Bruce Buckhurst and trained as a cabinet maker at the Barnsley Workshops I've actually met quite a few! But I can vouch that closely set cap irons had simply dropped off the radar, the alternative solutions that were used were scraping, sanding, a back bevel, or a high frog angle.

Incidentally, closely set cap irons (as well as scraping, back bevels, and high frog angles) aren't nearly as effective on soft woods (even on pretty hard soft woods like Yew), nor are they much good on "punky" timbers like spalted woods or some Brown or Tiger Oak, but on highly figured hardwoods it's a revelatory technique. In the couple of years since I picked the idea up from DW and started to use it regularly a closely set cap iron has proven to be a virtually guaranteed, silver bullet solution to tear out.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm surprised this wasn't commonly known as we were taught it fifty years ago at school, but it goes to show that just because we know something it doesn't follow that everyone else does.

 

[nabs]

yes fair play to DW - I am sure most of us heard about it from him first, and he also has provided practical advice on how to use it, which is sorely lacking in the historical references.

And that was my point really - if you read the terse references to it in old books then, even with the wisdom of hindsight, it would not really encourage you to experiment. What is needed is for someone to show you it working...

 

[julianf]

It seems i did not click "send" on my previous reply... : (

Anyway, i suspect what i should try first is a smoothing plane with cap iron. It seems size is an area of ongoing debate, so i should probably just ask for a recommendation on brand?

I would be foolish to buy a top of the range item, given my limited skill, and unmapped future, but i also know that "cheap" and "good value" are entirely independent terms.

So, what would be a mid priced "good value" item to be looking at? : ) Or even a cheap "good value" item!

 

[MikeG.]

Buy an old Record or Stanley on ebay, and follow one of the many on line videos of cleaning up, sharpening and setting it. It's much easier if someone who knows what they're doing is standing at your elbow as you do it, but with perseverance you should get a really nice plane for £30 or so. Don't waste money on a new plane.

 

[julianf]

I would normally buy used, however, i currently have no sharpening jig, so i thought if i purchased new, at least i would get some use before having to get involved with buying more "stuff"! : )

 

[El Barto]

I would normally buy used, however, i currently have no sharpening jig, so i thought if i purchased new, at least i would get some use before having to get involved with buying more "stuff"! : )

Even if you buy new you're more than likely to need to sharpen and fettle the iron. I think that goes for all new planes to some degree, regardless of price.

If you buy an old Record or Stanley and restore it you will be chuffed, I bet. Only takes an hour or so (unless it's truly knackered). I followed the steps in this video.

 

[MikeG.]

More to the point, you actually learn what goes into making the plane work if you fettle it yourself.

If you're in East Anglia, JulianF, you can come and do it in my workshop with me. It'll take an hour or so, and you'll have the sweetest plane you've ever handled at the end of it. Bring cake.

Edit........I see you're in Devon. Oh well.

 

[ED65]

Anyway, i suspect what i should try first is a smoothing plane with cap iron. It seems size is an area of ongoing debate

I think nearly everyone would agree you'll eventually need a 4, and it's a handy starting size. 5s can be a bit intimidating and they're more unwieldy to the beginner so hard to go wrong with a 4.

so i should probably just ask for a recommendation on brand?

Around here you'll nearly always get a recommendation to buy an older (or best, vintage) Stanley or Record. There are a number of good reasons for this, they are abundant and cheap to very cheap on the secondhand market in the UK and many here have had luck getting really excellent planes for pocket change. But unfortunately we're nearing the end of the season for car boots so it might be best to haunt Gumtree if you want to go this route.

Although probably salvageable avoid anything that looks like this!

:mrgreen:

There are plenty of planes in better condition than this out there so there's no reason for you to even consider something in this sort of shape.

You can get a decent new plane for a modest price. Even the most maligned made-in-China brand, Silverline, can be made to work well. Paul Sellers and our own Graham Haydon have given the thumbs up to them, after a suitable amount of time is spent fettling them needless to say. And I and a few others here have Faithfull no. 4s what we're more than happy with. If you don't mind plastic handles B&Q sell a plane that. I should mention that they're a tad on the heavy side and the paint (although made of armour plate apparently judging by how hard it is to remove!) is a bit gloopy so it won't win any awards for beauty, but they can be good workers.

I would be foolish to buy a top of the range item, given my limited skill, and unmapped future...

Yes, and you'll be overpaying anyway! Generations of craftsmen before us used 'lesser' planes and look at what they could do with them. There's no need to get a premium plane, or an expensive aftermarket replacement iron when the standard kit can work so well and do so much.

 

[DBT85]

I would be foolish to buy a top of the range item, given my limited skill, and unmapped future, but i also know that "cheap" and "good value" are entirely independent terms.

So, what would be a mid priced "good value" item to be looking at? : ) Or even a cheap "good value" item!

I was in a similar situation a few months ago. Since I don't mind spending the money I asked and was advised, much as you have rightly been, that there is little need. Either cheap new ones that others have used or an older Record/Stanley will do exactly what you want.

I was rewatching a video by Sellers just today, about an hour long, where he takes an old rusty plane and does everything to it he would do to get it ready for his classes, right there on camera for you to see and follow along. Videos like that made by him and many tohers take some of the mystery out and make the task of fettling much less daunting. More so whne you've only spent £25 on a plane rather than something much more expensive which you'll still have to tinker with.

Hell, there have been a few examples selling on eBay just today for under £20 posted that would need at most minor checking over and sharpening.

 

[Just4Fun]

Even the most maligned made-in-China brand, Silverline, can be made to work well.

I recently bought 2 new Silverline No 4s for £10.50 each from Amazon. I set one up as a scrub plane and one as a smoother. I have used the scrub a bit and it has been fine. I have not used the smoother much yet but it seems to be OK. The smoother took a bit of time to flatten (I didn't bother much with that on the scrub) but other than that they are certainly a lot better than the price would suggest.

 

[julianf]

More to the point, you actually learn what goes into making the plane work if you fettle it yourself.

If you're in East Anglia, JulianF, you can come and do it in my workshop with me. It'll take an hour or so, and you'll have the sweetest plane you've ever handled at the end of it. Bring cake.

Edit........I see you're in Devon. Oh well.

A kind offer - thank you.

What part of Essex are you in?

I was born in Chelmsford, and, indeed, my olds still live there.

 

[MikeG.]

......What part of Essex are you in?

I was born in Chelmsford, and, indeed, my olds still live there.

Near Sudbury, Suffolk.

 

[custard]

I think nearly everyone would agree you'll eventually need a 4, and it's a handy starting size. 5s can be a bit intimidating and they're more unwieldy to the beginner so hard to go wrong with a 4.

No 4 planes offer a challenge for beginners that a No 5 doesn't. Namely there's not much of the sole ahead of the iron, I've seen plenty of beginners struggle with this because they don't ensure the front part of the sole is perfectly flat on the workpiece before the blade bites into the wood, oftentimes the back edge of the sole is below the surface of the workpiece, i.e. the plane is tipped slightly up. This means the first few inches of the workpiece gets massacred and the beginner gets frustrated. It's also more difficult to start a No 4 plane skewed, because then there really is very very little sole resting on the surface.

A No 5 is less of a problem in this respect. It's not much heavier, yet that added bit of real estate ahead of the blade makes it easier to plane correctly.

It's not a critical problem, and given time you figure it out, but for the easiest possible introduction to planing a No 5 has the edge.

 

[Mr T]

I think nearly everyone would agree you'll eventually need a 4, and it's a handy starting size. 5s can be a bit intimidating and they're more unwieldy to the beginner so hard to go wrong with a 4..

I would disagree about the 4. I think I had a 4 when I first started about 40 years ago but don't think I have used it for the past 30 years. I would say that the most versatile plane is a 5 1/2. Most general planing is about momentum IMO and the 4 doesn't have enough mass to get that.

Chris

 

[MikeG.]

Woodworkers and planes..........you'll never get agreement. I have used nothing else other than one number 4* in nearly 40 years (well, other than a block plane). I use it for stock preparation through to smoothing and edge jointing. I've used it endlessly on green oak framing. I've made furniture professionally with it, and it alone. I can set it to hog off vast amounts of material, and then to take shavings like gossamer. I put new handles on it 10 or 12 years ago, and it gives me a blister on the heel of my left hand if I use it for hours at a time, but I forgive it. The only thing it isn't special at is working on the shooting board, where a bit of extra weight and bearing area would help. Now and then I hanker after something a bit longer, and one day I'll buy an old ebay number 6 to restore. Don't let anyone tell you you need a collection of bench planes.


*I'm pretty sure it's a number 4. It doesn't say on it. It's a Stanley, but doesn't even say that anywhere other than on the iron.

 

[julianf]

So a scan of ebay shows this -

Would that be preferable to a cheap silverline from toolstation? Theyre about the same price, all in - ie about £15.