RIP Stay-Set ?

[Sheffield Tony]

What's going on at Thomas Flinn ? Seems like the final distinctive feature of Clifton planes, and their Record legacy has been discarded:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/Clifton-440-Cap-Iron-532.html

I rather like the Stay-Set design, though in truth it is most useful with the older thin cutting irons which it held down very well, perhaps the thicker irons don't really need it. Sad loss of heritage though.

 

[Trafalgar]

With all Flinn have going on you'd think they'd leave it in for the traditionalist. It's hard to imagine there's a huge cost savings to be had when considering the full line of tools - drop in the bucket so to speak.

All in all, unhappy news.

 

[Vann]

...Seems like the final distinctive feature of Clifton planes, and their Record legacy has been discarded:

I rather like the Stay-Set design, though in truth it is most useful with the older thin cutting irons which it held down very well, perhaps the thicker irons don't really need it. Sad loss of heritage though.

...All in all, unhappy news.

+2

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Sam R]

I was about to link to the bench planes to show that they use the 2 piece, but no, you are right:

The Cap Iron has a single piece design to offer rigid clamping

:?

I'm puzzled. I'd be amazed if the cost savings were so great. Having a Clifton 5 I use daily, I've come to like the 2 piece, not that it's a deal breaker, but a nice feature nonetheless. Also - rigid clamping? Rigidity of the cutting iron is the function of the frog. I like the fact Clifton exist, am very happy with my grey paint plane (of which an eBay Stanley/Record will compete in terms of base function & wood finish I know) and like the fact I can almost see the saw making factory from my bench but feel they really need to get on par with Lie Nielsen in terms of marketing. It feels like you are not buying from woodworkers (which perhaps they are not). Workshop Heaven do a great job of promoting them. But T-F lose out by not promoting the benefits such as the type of cast iron - LN bend but these don't crack and are more stable - from WSH, the cryogenic over hand forged irons - better results in blind tests -from Peter Sefton. But you have to chance upon a lot of this: it's not clear from the outset. I read that they sent a replacement plane plus a shoulder plane by way of apology for a plane that was out of true by a small amount to someone at Savage's workshop - that's brilliant customer service, but it's not apparent. Maybe the dropping of the 2 piece cap iron is the same, tested, asked etc, but it means another not-so-positive thread being scoured by google... But they are great products, made in non-exploitative conditions (no aspersions cast) on the doorstep.

 

[PAC1]

The change to a 1 piece is possibly a retrograde step. No one else was doing the stay set. The new iron has a lip on the front edge so that all the pressure is exerted just back from the cutting edge. This also makes it easier to ensure a tight fit across the width of the blade. No one else machines the lip.
I was disappointed when I received the new arrangement but after sharpening and setting up I was happy with the performance. Also from a honing point of view you cannot do the ruler trick (if you were minded to) with the stay set. So on balance the new design offers advantages over the standard flat profile which so far seem to even out the loss.

 

[iNewbie]

Maybe the dropping of the 2 piece cap iron is the same, tested, asked etc, but it means another not-so-positive thread being scoured by google... But they are great products, made in non-exploitative conditions (no aspersions cast) on the doorstep.

At the same time for some other people who didn't like the SS that might be a buying point.

At least they're being talked about - that also isn't always a bad thing even when its deemed negative.

Great Product either way.

 

[D_W]

I haven't got any experience with the SS, but the bar stock irons are kind of a disappointment. The old deep mark clifton irons had some humanity in them, in terms of looks - the uniqueness slowly withers away one thing at a time.

As far as any of the decent irons that don't fail in big chunks, blind tests and all of this and that are kind of misleading to users unless the difference is many times to one. I'm sure I could work off more cubic inches of wood with a vintage stanley iron than most new users could with M4. I've been down that road (I can do far more work now with an old stanley iron than I was able to early on with a HSS iron, because I've learned to use the tools - not to mention, the sharpening cycle is much shorter). The forged iron design was unique to clifton.

Disappointed to see the change to the (de)improved chipbreaker design. If anything, I'd like to have seen a cleanly made version of the stanley cap iron, a superior design to the new (de)improved style, but maybe stamping something accurately and finishing it is a lot less preferable than a slab sided type cap iron that comes directly off of CNC and grinder without much human intervention.

 

[Sam R]

I agree with your points but

blind tests and all of this and that are kind of misleading to users unless the difference is many times to one

Peter Sefton knows his onions!

 

[Vann]

As I see it, the Stay-Set had two advantages:
- it stiffened thinner blades without attempting to flex them;
- it made reseting the irons much quicker for those who hone by hand.

The disadvantage was that the "deflector" would drop off for those who didn't adapt their technique when removing or installing the irons.

The Clifton already has a really thick iron, so the first advantage isn't really relevant on a Clifton plane. I like the Stay-set and have retrofitted several of my Record planes with them.

For Thomas-Flinn that may be a disadvantage, as I'm sure they'd rather sell a whole Clifton, than just the cap-iron for a Stanley/Record upgrade. None-the-less, the Stay-Set was a distinct point of difference. Now they're selling the same product (one-piece cap-iron) as Veritas, Quangsheng, Hock, & IBC. I don't see the point :?. I guess the one-piece is cheaper to produce, though I don't see that reflected in the retail price.

I own two Clifton planes, a #3 and a #4 1/2, and the #3 is a favourite. I think I like the looks of Lie-Nielsen planes a bit more than the Clifton, but I bought the Cliftons because:
- made in Britain (and note I'm in NZ);
- forged cutting iron;
- 2-piece cap-iron;
- British Racing Green (okay - so that's just a taste thing).

Some may not be very valid reasons (but hey, it's my discretionary spending). So it doesn't look like I'll be buying another Clifton bench plane (or cap-iron) anytime soon.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[D_W]

I agree with your points but

blind tests and all of this and that are kind of misleading to users unless the difference is many times to one

Peter Sefton knows his onions!

It depends on what the users are doing with something. Presume that the new irons are still O1? I'm not surprised to hear that vs. modern quality steel, the forging process didn't really add anything. I still liked the stamp! Point being, though, that you can often test one thing against another and find a quantifiable difference, but one that really doesn't make a practical difference in day to day work.

"A little bit better" sells things, though. We never had the representation in the states that we should've had of clifton. $90 irons weren't an uncommon thing, which is a hard sell when there are so many people selling others here, and there just never was much of a push on the retail side for the planes - just a few advocates. Maybe it's difficult to dent Lie Nielsen's market, not sure.

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi All
I guess I can understand the need to offer a 1-piece cap iron as some folk have grumbled about the stay-set arrangement, dropping the loose bit, not helping with sharpening etc - its been the topic of some discussion and criticism which has possibly put other prospective buyers of Clifton planes. So I guess they are reacting to the market's demands probably more than trying to make things cheaper, although that, I suppose, could be part of it.

Like Vann, I'm also a bit of a stay-set fan and have a few (4) Clifton planes which I like very much so I've posted the question to TF (on the Clifton facebook page) whether the stay-set cap iron will be available as an option if requested. I'll share their reply.

Cheers
Richard

Blimey, they have responded already...looks like they have been considering possibly having the 2-piece as an alternative. So, its not set in concrete by the looks of it.

 

[bugbear]

...I've posted the question to TF (on the Clifton facebook page)

There's a Clifton Facebook page?! When did Hell freeze over? :shock:

BugBear

 

[richarddownunder]

Frozen a while ago. :lol:


https://www.facebook.com/cliftonplanes/

 

[G S Haydon]

Seems very sensible to have the two piece as an option rather than assuming people want it. I think the two piece is a good enough concept but I'm not sold on it like I used to be. Single part cap irons have and still are the overwhelming success. Any problems in use is going to be due to lack of understanding on how to use the tool or there being a massive flaw rather than a two-piece curing all problems.

 

[Harbo]

Some videos on their Facebook page but sadly no commentary.

Rod

 

[MIGNAL]

Facebook. I had cornflakes with some milk, just a touch of sugar. Took bowwow for walksies. Sees ya.
BTW. Ave ya seen knew chipbreaker? Mega!!!

 

[D_W]

Frozen a while ago. :lol:


https://www.facebook.com/cliftonplanes/

Cryogenically?

 

[G S Haydon]

=D>

 

[G S Haydon]

Facebook. I had cornflakes with some milk, just a touch of sugar. Took bowwow for walksies. Sees ya.
BTW. Ave ya seen knew chipbreaker? Mega!!!

Sounds like you had a good morning! Sure you wrote your post in the right place or was this a copy and paste from your facebook update? Glad you like the new chipbreaker too. By using the term "Mega" I assume you are 55>75. Interestingly it is the mainly silver haired generation who use facebook these days. :lol:

 

[MIGNAL]

Crikey! Have some respect and please don't lump me with those old gimmers. I'm 54.