rip-cutting seasoned oak?

[ED65]

If you're going down the hardpoint-saw route then another one to consider is the Predator from Spear & Jackson. They're quite well thought of here as you'll see if you have a quick search. And cheap as chips, under a tenner a piece.

Hybrid tooth pattern but they still rip really well. I've done numerous side-by-side comparisons with mine over a few years against two models of Stanley hardpoint saw (one of which has a lower tooth count and significantly deeper gullets) and a conventional saw filed rip (but not a proper rip with very low TPI) and the first-fix version of the Predator is always the fastest, sometimes significantly.

Both of the Predators I own are also consistently the easiest to steer, so I think that is down to the saws and not an artefact of the user

 

[Ttrees]

Since your making a mallet or two, it might be advisable to get the hand saw for twisty stock as this likely will yield a more durable mallet, but I'd split the stock if I were making handles for chisels
if I didn't have a lathe.
Depending on how many handles you want to do, and how you're going about making them from the stock grain will dictate how is best to procure the most from you're timber.

That's if you thinking of making a round profiled stick and chopping each handle off the end, which would probably be the quickest.
A piccy or two might help
Tom

 

[woodbloke66]

So you have short half logs....what are you thinking of doing with it? Do you wish to obtain maximum yield from these , if you want you could spilt /saw these again after slicing , orientating the boards to counter cupping , or you could quarter saw them for more stable stock,I.e not warp. I might think of trying to split it into some quarter sawn/radially split stock. Splitting off the rubbish sapwood off the edges of the half log might give a clue on how well this might go. It might be a good idea to put out the feelers for someone with a bandsaw nearby, and buy a blade for it and bring a few beer tokens. It's always possible for a blade to get destroyed if it hits a nail ,stone or it beeaks for another reason. Tom

The other alternative is to use a froe and 'beetle' as oak splits easily along the grain. I invested in a Ray Isles froe recently to split some short walnut logs and it's relatively easy (and quite good fun) to do - Rob

 

[amongoaks]

excellent points gentlemen. splitting for the handles does sound like the best approach: the stock loss there would likely be minimal given the way i've been doing these. i usually work the billets down to comfortable octagon cross-sections with micro-plane blades in a hacksaw frame and/or a Japanese saw-rasp (https://www.fine-tools.com/shintorasp.html) followed by finishing rasps. i find this to be an effective and fairly efficient process, not to mention it being one i actually enjoy. since i'm not a huge fan of round handles i've thus far managed to avoid the whole lathe issue entirely.

the froe is a fine idea. i work in green wood whenever i can and it would be very useful there too. gotta look into this further.

as to the mallets: sawing is most likely to work better for me since i very much want to preserve and show off the wild, twisty grain as opposed to splitting or wasting it away. Tom, i'm guessing that's more or less what you had in mind when you suggested sawing here.

thank you all for the saw suggestions, you've given me a number of options to pursue.

 

[Inspector]

I think a frame saw and a few blades would be a good choice.

https://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.html

Pete

 

[ED65]

I was going to suggest riving for the chisel handles too, except for your comment about how squirrelly the grain was. Still, definitely worth a try for how quickly you can produce blanks from a short piece of log.

i usually work the billets down to comfortable octagon cross-sections with micro-plane blades in a hacksaw frame and/or a Japanese saw-rasp (https://www.fine-tools.com/shintorasp.html) followed by finishing rasps. i find this to be an effective and fairly efficient process...

Planing down would be far faster, and I suspect will ultimately yield a much better surface if that matters. All my homemade chisel, file and rasp handles are produced this way. It can all be done with one plane (that's how I started, and it was just a block plane) but ideally with a pair of planes, a roughing plane of some sort for hogging material off to produce the square/rectangular starting blank and a smoother.

If you're doing a fair number first job might be to throw together an octagonal planing jig, but you can do the work perfectly well by clamping up in a vice if you're only doing a handful.

 

[amongoaks]

I think a frame saw and a few blades would be a good choice. ...

i quite like this idea as i've always found the frame saw to be a wonderfully efficient and forgiving tool.
that said i have tried a garden-variety frame saw on other dried hardwoods in the past and the results -- especially rip cuts -- were not satisfying. no doubt the blade i was using at the time was inappropriate but what would be and where to find the right blade for such work is a question i've never been able to answer with any confidence. thus the frame saws hadn't come to mind for this particular project.

 

[amongoaks]

Planing down would be far faster, and I suspect will ultimately yield a much better surface ... If you're doing a fair number first job might be to throw together an octagonal planing jig ...

i have no doubt that moving to a plane would be a smart move but (a) i've never owned a decent plane and (b) an injury has rendered my right wrist semi-functional and highly adverse to the chatter and shock that scrub planing appears to entail. long, relatively uninterrupted strokes are no problem for my wrist which is why I've been finding the rasps working well for me here. also, i own a good number of them at this point so they've become my go-to tools for this smallish, sculpting kind of work.

on the other hand this is woodworking and being able to find alternate ways of accomplishing a given thing is part of what we do so having a look at this from a different perspective is good advice. i'll poke around at the octagon jig idea to see if there isn't some good way to put my nice new Makita planer to work on this.

 

[AndyT]

If you do want to try a frame saw, Dieter Schmidt offer a wide range.
Easy ordering and quick delivery.

https://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.html

 

[amongoaks]

If you do want to try a frame saw, Dieter Schmidt offer a wide range.
Easy ordering and quick delivery.

i know them, ordered some lovely Iwasaki rasps from them a couple months ago. excellent source for very good tools.

as to the frame saw, i'd happily buy a blade and build the saw but what blade for this type of work? that's not at all clear to me and my experience in the past has been that a rip saw for softwoods is not a great choice for ripping rock hard oak, for example. i have a Japanese Ryoba saw that is a lovely tool for soft or green woods but it's no fun at all in the seasoned hardwoods, especially ripping.

so a saw question comes to mind: are hard-point / impulse hardened saw blades generally good to go on seasoned hardwoods? i'm trying to narrow the field here and wondering if that is a good place to start.

 

[Ttrees]

Planing down would be far faster, and I suspect will ultimately yield a much better surface ... If you're doing a fair number first job might be to throw together an octagonal planing jig ...

i have no doubt that moving to a plane would be a smart move but (a) i've never owned a decent plane and (b) an injury has rendered my right wrist semi-functional and highly adverse to the chatter and shock that scrub planing appears to entail. long, relatively uninterrupted strokes are no problem for my wrist which is why I've been finding the rasps working well for me here. also, i own a good number of them at this point so they've become my go-to tools for this smallish, sculpting kind of work.

.

What's stopping you from planing in the other direction?

Tom

 

[amongoaks]

ok, time for a little update:
i went through the posts and chose 2 saws that sounded promising and i could readily lay hands on:
Bahco 2400-22-XT7-HP (8ppi)
Spear & Jackson Predator First Fix (7ppi)

looking at the saws i would have said that the Spear & Jackson has more of a rip-cut configuration to the teeth of the two. so i clamped down one of my oak blocks and started doing some rip-cut trimming.

the Predator cuts a fairly wide kerf, cleans the kerf well and made good progress. i ripped a slab off a block that was 10 inches long and 6 inches deep in 5 minutes or so. it seemed best if i more or less let the saw progress through the long grain at its own pace, pushing it hard just seemed to clog the kerf and the cut started getting jammed up. slower was better and more pleasant sawing to boot. the finish was a bit ragged but of course it would be. no complaints at all.
[update: i don't want to give the impression that the Predator was ideal because i can't say that it was. it struggled a bit, didn't track well and was prone to kerf clogging. but it did manage the job without being a complete bodge.]

The Bahco was a different story. i'm a greenhorn as you guys have figured out by now but i do know the difference between cross-cutting and rip-cutting and using the two incorredtly from experience with my Ryoba saw. to me the Bahco behaved like a cross-cut saw: binding up in the rip cut, not clearing the kerf well at all. generally a more difficult and less pleasant experience. I got about 1/4 way through the block and decided to finish that cut with the Predator.

so, Predator First Fix for the win here. i'd still like to try the same job with a frame saw set up with the proper blade but until i know i'm getting the right blade i can live with what i've got for now.

thanks to all! i could have fumbled around on my own for quite some time without your guidance. and now i have a couple nice saws to boot. total cost: £25 including delivery.

 

[MikeG.]

.......so a saw question comes to mind: are hard-point / impulse hardened saw blades generally good to go on seasoned hardwoods? i'm trying to narrow the field here and wondering if that is a good place to start.

You've had plenty of advice on this already. The answer is yes.

 

[amongoaks]

What's stopping you from planing in the other direction?

sorry, i don't think i understand the question. what i meant was that from all i've seen and watched roughing down with a plane is a fairly jerky process with a fair bit of resistance to the cut. i'm assuming the folks i've watched chose their cutting direction intelligently but seeing their planes bind up in the forward stroke and stop abruptly was enough to make me feel woozy in the guts: my wrist would punish me for weeks if i tried that.

 

[Ttrees]

Instead of using your hand with your sore wrist to do the pushing, use the other.
You don't need any force holding the front knob.
You shouldn't encounter too much resistance planing handle thickness stock.
You can use the cap iron to stop the jerkiness/the plane halting to a stop in the cut, tearing out leading to another shaving that won't be continuous,
as you can plane regardless of grain direction and get a consistent shaving that doesn't break.
You won't likely be needing to need a camber at all for narrow stock, and could shoot the end grain smooth while your at it.

Just thought I'd mention the cap iron rant incase the grain is really wild, if its not you will find it a lot easier to push the plane with a camber.
I'd get some nice old planes if I were you.

Tom

 

[ED65]

i've never owned a decent plane

A plane doesn't have to be great to function well enough, so if you own a 4 already (this or a 3 would be the best size for this task IMO) it could be fine. A couple of years before Paul Sellers got some cheaper planes to compare and test out I bought one of B&Q's finest and while it won't win any beauty awards (not only plastic handles, yellow plastic handles :shock: :lol: ) it's actually not bad. It illustrates neatly that a relatively coarse version of the type can be adequate.

an injury has rendered my right wrist semi-functional and highly adverse to the chatter and shock that scrub planing appears to entail.

Ah, in that case it is probably best not to try. I don't use a full-on scrub for roughing, I have an old no. 4 with a radiused iron fitted and adjusted for a lightish cut it's not super aggressive, but this type of work requires planing with the grain and not cross-grain, so some push-back and judder is unavoidable at times; the more irregular the grain the more likely this is to occur and that's the type of wood you have there.

But once you have roughed to shape a plane might be a good way to finish shaping and smooth off, since in an ideal world those two operations happen simultaneously.

I do sand every handle I make, but that's often only running some worn 250 over their arrises to soften them slightly. They look awesome fresh from the plane, lovely and crisp, but they're just a bit too sharp for comfort. In my uncalloused hands at least!

it seemed best if i more or less let the saw progress through the long grain at its own pace...

That's pretty much good saw practice in a nutshell

Glad the Predator worked as intended.

 

[ED65]

You won't likely be needing to need a camber at all for narrow stock...

Need? No. Want? Yes.

Even if you're only going from an accurately sawn square/rectangular blank to octagonal – remembering that it's tapered octagonal that is the end target here – it's a massive boon to have a plane with a radiused iron to take off the bulk of the excess. It can literally cut the number of plane strokes down by a factor of 10 or more.

...could shoot the end grain smooth while your at it.

You can yes, but I generally need to adjust the angle of the end grain slightly due to vagaries of planing to shape. So I'll often end up having to do some paring and/or filing after the major shaping. I recently acquired a nearly new vixen file (bodywork file more accurately) and that'll be my weapon of choice for this in future because it's exactly as fabulous as I thought it would be from worn examples.

 

[amongoaks]

ok, sounds like i should have another look at planes. it had never occurred to me to swap hand positions, too used to thinking of my right hand as being in the driver's seat. and good to hear that inexpensive planes can be sufficient. that needs some looking into.

 

[Lons]

ok, sounds like i should have another look at planes. it had never occurred to me to swap hand positions, too used to thinking of my right hand as being in the driver's seat. and good to hear that inexpensive planes can be sufficient. that needs some looking into.

Better off imo with an old Stanley 4 if you don't mind a little fettling and sharpening. Plenty around pretty cheap, suggest you look on Facebook marketplace and Gumtree first for local sellers, often cheaper than ebay and you can inspect before buying.

 

[Nelsun]

ok, time for a little update:
i went through the posts and chose 2 saws that sounded promising and i could readily lay hands on:
Bahco 2400-22-XT7-HP (8ppi)
Spear & Jackson Predator First Fix (7ppi)

Thanks for doing a comparison between the two. Nowhere up here (Shetland) carries S&J saws that I know of so I've ordered one in from FFX and look forward to it hopefully making ripping an easier job... even if only slightly (hammer)