Revelation in stock preparation

[Paul Chapman]

One of the revelations for me at the West Dean hand-tool event, was to see the use of a toothed plane blade for stock preparation. When preparing sawn timber by hand, the convention is to use a heavily cambered blade in a scrub or jack plane to quickly get the wood to a presentable state before moving on to more conventional planes. The heavily cambered blade works well because the camber reduces resistance and enables thick shavings to be easily removed. One problem, however, is that tear-out can sometimes be quite severe, depending on the wood.

At West Dean, Deneb Puchalske of Lie Nielsen Toolworks gave us a demonstration using a toothed blade in a bevel-up plane. These are the blades http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=4

What you get using the toothed blade is a series of serrations but no tear-out. Like the heavily cambered blade, resistance is reduced so you can take thick shavings. I had a go with the plane and it was impressive. Unfortunately I don't have a bevel-up plane - if I did I would immediately order one of the toothed blades because they work so well and I do all my stock preparation by hand.

Has anyone else tried this technique?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[ac445ab]

Hi,
Very interesting point. Tear out is very tedious in these cases!
Is a bevel up plane strictly necessary? What about a wooden plane with a toothed bevel down blade? What is the cutting angle?
Ciao,
Guiliano

 

[Karl]

Very interesting Paul. I know what you mean about deep tearout - it can be a real problem, and result in significantly more work. It also means that hand thicknessing (which I don't do - invested in a Makita benchtop thicknesser) becomes a more nervous proposition - the tearout may run deeper than your required thickness.

I have a Veritas LA Jack - will have a scout around to see if there is a suitable blade available.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Actually I have one for a Lee Valley BU smoother. I've only used a few times and not for stock prep from sawn lumber. Basically I used it where you would get tear out from a normal blade and in instances where you are just about ready to go to a scraper. What I've found is a few passes, usually at 30 degrees to the grain and in opposite direction, I can then go back to the smoother to finish.

What I've heard/read (thinking it may have been Joel at TFWW) was the toothed blades were more prevalent a few years back, in block planes. Reason being the cost, and the infrequent use, that you could pop one in and out in a block plane quickly. Seems the use proposed was similar to my use.

In my case, the toothed blade has worked fine. I've also seen the blades available for a variety of scrapers, besides bench and block planes. Seems to me, the use of a heavy blade or a toothed blade in a scraper plane or cabinet scraper may be going to far into a solution looking for a problem!

Tony Z.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Yes - saw that (heck, probably saw you trying it - 'Hi there' in hindsight )
'Tis a good idea, and I do do stock prep by hand.
Now, I wonder if Clifton...

 

[Philly]

Paul
Lie-Nielsen make toothed blades for all their bench planes - maybe those will work fine with your Cliffies?
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Paul Chapman]

I don't see why, in principle, it wouldn't work with a bevel-down plane :-k Probably just need to set the cap iron back a bit. Must have a word with Mike Hudson at Westonbirt to see whether he can knock out a few nice Clifton blades with teeth 8)

Hi Steve Must get some name tags......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Philly]

Paul
Traditionally, ALL toothed blade planes were bevel down. L-N haven't come up with this idea, it's the traditional method of dealing with highly figured timbers.
You could always take a dremel to an old blade?
Philly

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul
Traditionally, ALL toothed blade planes were bevel down. L-N haven't come up with this idea, it's the traditional method of dealing with highly figured timbers.
You could always take a dremel to an old blade?
Philly

Thanks, Phil, that's interesting - might give it a try. The results Deneb was getting were certainly impressive and I liked the feel of it when I tried out his plane. Pity his bench was so high - he was a big bloke :shock:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Paul - were the results as good as the cambered blade - ie was it as quick at stock removal.

I have to order a few things from Rutlands on Monday. They have the toothed blade for the Jack in stock, so may order one (bit hefty though - £37 )

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

Probably not quite as quick (the shavings were probably less thick) but just as quick in overall terms in that, with less tear-out, you can plane further with it before going on to your ordinary planes, if that's clear :?

Several of us were equally impressed with it - Pete (Newt) saw it first and was raving about it. So much so, he dragged us over to have a look and a demo

I don't think you'd regret buying it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

PS Thinking about this a bit more, I think that with a scrub-type blade, it's rather brutal and you are ripping out chunks of wood. With the toothed blade it's all a bit more gentle and controlled, while still being fast.

 

[Karl]

Probably not quite as quick (the shavings were probably less thick) but just as quick in overall terms in that, with less tear-out, you can plane further with it before going on to your ordinary planes, if that's clear :?

Had to re-read that first paragraph to understand :lol:

I've tagged a blade onto my order from Rutlands - should be an interesting solution to the dreaded tearout.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Harbo]

Ray Isles makes toothed irons for some Stanley Block planes - maybe worth contacting him for a toothed iron to suit your plane?

Rod

 

[jonbikebod]

My four penn’th worth.
Until a year or so ago, when I got a planer/thicknesser I did all my stock preparation by hand. I modified a #5 jack with an open mouth and a heavily cambered blade. Textbook stuff and it did prove to be very effective used diagonally. The heavily cambered blade only removed a shaving if an inch or so wide as any wider and the plane as impossible to push. Used in scrub mode, as anyone who has and does do this by hand, it the all important consideration. Scrub planes made for the purpose have a narrower blade and are smaller and lighter that a jack plane as well.
Then at an Axminster tool show a few years ago (I think it was the last) Deneb Puchalske was demonstrating stock preparation with the toothed blade in the L-N LA jack. It was one of those epiphany things, it made so much sense I ordered a toothed blade then and there.
It came with a 25º bevel and I simply polished this (scary-sharp to 2,500 grit). The resultant 42º EP is a huge advantage when it comes to the effort needed to push the plane. Not only is the wedging action under the chip lower, the resultant down force on the sole of the plane and so friction is greatly reduces as well. Added to that only half the normal cutting surface of the blade is cutting anyway and the result is much quicker stock removal for less effort; it still removes stock in a two inch wide band, which improves progress no end.
It isn’t a universal solution; it isn’t any good on soft ‘stringy’ wood like pine which tends to clog the teeth. A conventional approach is better then but on medium hard to hard wood it is significantly more effective. It will still tear-out if used along the grain as any scrub type plane will but used diagonally and across, it isn’t a generally a problem.
I love my Veritas LA jack dearly and believe it to be the most versatile bench plane yet invented but it isn’t ideal for this job. It is bigger and heavier than the L-N which is a disadvantage in this instance and I also find the L-N handles more comfortable in heavy use.
Reducing the friction of a plane’s sole by flattening and polishing is always an advantage but the reduction in friction when ‘scrubbing’ for hours cannot be over stated. What is really nice is to swap to a conventional blade, set the mouth and take the finest of shavings, in moments and with the same plane…
Jon.

 

[jonbikebod]

Historical point.
The high angle 'toothing' planes of old had the grooves milled on the front in a ‘V’ shape and were used for preparing groundwork prior to (hammer) veneering and dealing with difficult grain.
The blades available for L-N and L-V BU planes have grooves in the underside of the blade in a ‘U’ shape. I have never heard of one being available for a Stanley #62 for example but their #64 ‘Butchers block’ plane came with both a grooved and a normal cutter.
To me then, not quite the same thng but both old ideas.
Jon.

 

[Anonymous]

I have seen Denab's demo at a woodworking show. I talked to him about his procedure and he doesn't use a camber in any of his bench planes. I didn't ask him if he uses a scrub. In the case of his demo his steps were 1) machine prep 2) toothed LA jack 3) #8 with blade sharpened straight across. It is a very efficient and effective method for but not for someone who preps mostly by hand.

 

[newt]

As Paul stated I was very impressed particularly as you sharpen like any regular plane blade. I also like the cross hatch pattern it produces and you can then use this as a reference when following with a conventional blade. He said they cost about 40 bucks.

 

[Karl]

My new toothed blade for the LA Jack arrived yesterday, and a scrub stlye blade arrived from Philly today for use in my Philly Jack.

I will post some comparison pics of each style of blade at work in the next couple of days.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Karl]

Ok, so managed to upload a few pics. The first is the Philly Jack with the scrub type blade

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As you can see - distinct scrub type shavings (well, what else would you expect????).

Next up, the LA Jack with the serrated blade

And the shavings themselves

Two distinct shaving types. I like the Veritas - it causes MUCH less tearout than a standard scrub blade. But it doesn't remove material anywhere near as quickly as the Philly Jack. And it is also much harder work (size of the plane, friction of the blade I suppose).

For fast stock removal i'll be sticking with the Philly Jack. But to quickly dress a surface, or for use after the Philly Jack, the Veritas is going to prove a real godsend.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

Thanks for posting those pictures, Karl. Very interesting and they seem to confirm the impressions I had following the demo at West Dean.

Cheers :wink:

Paul