removing a back bevel

[bugbear]

I suspect that there are more than a few characters in this thread that know more about sharpening and the attendant metallurgy than the late great Alan Peters. Lesson in here somewhere?

Well, I don't need to sharpen at all, since woodworking is my hobby and pastime, not my job. I could stop anytime...

I enjoy knowing the why of a thing something at least as much as knowing the how, and I enjoy knowing and comparing the why of multiple things most of all.

Other people's priorities may have a narrower focus than mine, to which they are (of course) welcome.

BugBear

Is the "narrower focus" sharpening up and moving on?

Perhaps you've misunderstood.

In my spare time I explore sharpening techniques, cook,
cycle, play Hammond organ, play guitar, do macro-photography, astro-photography, genealogy,
and wander round car boot sales, amongst other things.

Time spent on anyone of these means less time spent on woodwork.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Oh Gracious, cooking necessarily brings up knives.

I spent time at one of your countryman's cooking schools in the early 1980s -- Anne Willan's Ecole de Cuisine La Varenne in Paris and then LCB for pastry. We'll certainly have to take that subject up sometime soon...

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hello,

There is nothing truer than The phrase used on the last link; 'choose two out of the three-- fast, good, cheap'. It is certainly the case for woodwork sharpening systems, and I guess almost everything in life.

Fast, cheap sharpening will not be good; fast, good sharpening will not be cheap and good cheap sharpening will not be fast! Take your choice. :roll:

The book on metallurgical abrasion and polishing came in the post yesterday. Only had a glance, but there seems to be some good stuff, when I digest it. The few bits I've skimmed tell me that there is always some sub surface damage during abrasion, the actual grain structure of the metal is destructively altered. I came across a phrase saying that method adopted of mechanical grinding and then subsequent manual abrading, should cause the least damage possible and this damage should be removed with subsequent stages, also minimising the new damage of each new stage. A long winded way of saying ' polish to a fine enough grit and don't make too big a leap between grits', I guess. When I get some time, I'll delve a bit more deeply.

Incidentally, the book is called, Metallographic Polishing by Mechanical Methods, by Dr. L E Samuels.

Mike.

Hi Woody

I've not been following this thread because I don't use back bevels but out of boredom just picked up on the last page. If you want to read the absolute definitive guide to sharpening then you need Leonard Lee's (of Lee Valley tools ie Veritas) seminal work "A Complete Guide to Sharpening"

Everything from correct technique to electron micrographs of various edges after different sharpening strategies have been applied. It answers Bugbears "why" in spades although its a little dry to read, somewhat like a text book. What it does it obviate the need for opinion and conjecture because its objective reality.

 

[bugbear]

If you want to read the absolute definitive guide to sharpening then you need Leonard Lee's (of Lee Valley tools ie Veritas) seminal work "A Complete Guide to Sharpening"

Everything from correct technique to electron micrographs of various edges after different sharpening strategies have been applied. It answers Bugbears "why" in spades although its a little dry to read, somewhat like a text book. What it does it obviate the need for opinion and conjecture because its objective reality.

It's good, but I wouldn't say it's the whole story (and I didn't find it dry - quite grounded,
which may say as much about me as the book).

If nothing else, a few more alloys
and abrasives have come along since, and rather more people have access to good/cheap microscopes.

(Prof) John Verhoeven sill finds interesting things to research.

BugBear

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I agree that its date doesn't help as its clearly missing some of the more recent innovations. But its grounding principles are fabulous. What it needs is a modern revision to bring it up to date.

 

[Trafalgar]

If you want to read the absolute definitive guide to sharpening then you need Leonard Lee's (of Lee Valley tools ie Veritas) seminal work "A Complete Guide to Sharpening"

Everything from correct technique to electron micrographs of various edges after different sharpening strategies have been applied. It answers Bugbears "why" in spades although its a little dry to read, somewhat like a text book. What it does it obviate the need for opinion and conjecture because its objective reality.

It's good, but I wouldn't say it's the whole story (and I didn't find it dry - quite grounded,
which may say as much about me as the book).

If nothing else, a few more alloys
and abrasives have come along since, and rather more people have access to good/cheap microscopes.

(Prof) John Verhoeven sill finds interesting things to research.

BugBear

Well, technically not new alloys are they? Just steels that had never been put to use for woodworking hand tools right?

 

[bugbear]

If nothing else, a few more alloys
and abrasives have come along since, and rather more people have access to good/cheap microscopes.

(Prof) John Verhoeven sill finds interesting things to research.

BugBear

Well, technically not new alloys are they? Just steels that had never been put to use for woodworking hand tools right?

If you can split hairs like that, you're definitely one of us. Welcome, Brother!

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Sort of funny, but in reality I've always thought it was more marketing ploy than anything. I've used A-2, D-2, Demo'd PMVII, and none of them really beat fine Sheffield steel from its heyday. I have a Marples wooden jack with steel so good it just astounds me.

"New and Improved" have been selling products for years. New, yes (well, sort of), but not always improved.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Sort of funny, but in reality I've always thought it was more marketing ploy than anything. I've used A-2, D-2, Demo'd PMVII, and none of them really beat fine Sheffield steel from its heyday. I have a Marples wooden jack with steel so good it just astounds me.

"New and Improved" have been selling products for years. New, yes (well, sort of), but not always improved.

Well, that's your opinion, and you're perfectly entitled to it.

All the steel grades used now and in the past for woodworking edge tools have their advantages and disadvantages - when you push them for the last 5 or 10 percent of performance. All of them will take and hold an edge well enough to work wood satisfactorily - or there's no point the manufacturer selling the stuff (absolute bargain basement rubbish excepted - but we're talking about reasonable quality tools here). Some may take a slightly sharper edge in some circumstances, some may hold an edge better in some circumstances (and it would be interesting to understand the metallurgical reasons why, even if only out of interest), some may be cheaper or more expensive than others for a variety of reasons. However, all will work wood to a satisfactory standard.

One of the resons that the 'old Sheffield steel' has fallen out of use is because it's a pig to deal with in manufacture. It forges fine, but because it was heat treated using a (very fast) water quench, it was very prone to distortion and quenching cracks. That meant that manufacturers were somewhat limited in the shapes of tools they could make, and had to live with a high(ish) failure rate. Use of oil-hardening steels allowed a 'softer' quench, which meant far less distortion and cracking, and thus better - more consistent - tools, and a greater range of tool shapes. The quid-pro-quo was that oil-quenched steels (according to many) don't take such a fine edge. However, the edge quality of oil-quenched steel tools is plenty good enough for almost all purposes. Air hardening steels hold an edge for even longer, but won't take such a fine edge to start with. High Speed Steels last even longer, but with a further diminution of edge quality. Some steels are easier to sharpen than others. You pays yer money, and yer takes yer choice. If you prefer one over another, go with it - and give thanks that you have a choice.

All engineering is a compromise. When someone comes up with a material that takes a razor edge, holds it indefinitely and costs next to nothing to process, we'll all be using it. But it ain't been invented yet, so we use what we've got.

Edit to add - human nature being what it is, similar arguments have probably raged for as long as there has been a choice of steels. When Benjamin Huntsman made is crucible cast steel available in the 1740s, few manufacturers in Sheffield would use it - until they were forced to by their foreign competitors adopting it's use. Craftsmen then probably debated the merits of cast steel and shear steel - Benjamin Seaton hedged his bets when stocking his new tool chest in 1797 and bought a set of chisels in each steel!

 

[Trafalgar]

It's probably worth remembering the depth and breadth of tools that Marples, for one, were able to execute and/or stock using some of the steels we're discussing:

http://toolemera.com/Trade%20Catalogs/t ... gs193.html

I've personally never owned, borrowed, demo'd, used, or have been associated with in any way a tool that has steel the equal of my 1930ish vintage Marples wooden jack plane.

 

[bugbear]

I've personally never owned, borrowed, demo'd, used, or have been associated with in any way a tool that has steel the equal of my 1930ish vintage Marples wooden jack plane.

Interesting. I have several Marples tools, of varying vintages, and whilst the steel is "ok", it's not as good as I Sorby, Ibbotson, or Ward & Payne, at least
on the samples I own.

You either have an exceptional Marples item, or better steel yet lies ahead of you.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Krenov used to sharpen with a side to side action. I don't think he claimed to be unique in doing so. Perhaps he learned it when he trained in Sweden in Carl Malmsten's workshop. The College of the Redwoods certainly continue to show sharpening like this, though not exclusively. Funnily enough another method they favour is using short forward and backward strokes on the stone, which I favour when freehand sharpening.

Mike

That's very interesting Mike. :roll:
Nothing funny or unique about it though - if you rub a blade on a bit of stone up and down, side to side, figure of eight, figure of 42, short strokes or long, etc - as long as you keep it at or below 30º , it will sharpen.

 

[MIGNAL]

The 'best' blades that I have are both old types. A Stanley rule & level from a humble 102 block plane and a blade from an Acorn Plane. Neither of them would be considered the height of tool engineering yet both of these blades seem to be as good as any that I own. I wouldn't swap them for any of the new steel types, not that I think the newer types are poor or inferior. They just don't seem to be any better. The couple of HSS blades that I have certainly retain an edge longer but it also takes me a lot longer to get the sharpness to anywhere near the same level as the old Sheffield blades. In fact I don't think I can get HSS to quite the same level of sharpness. I probably have over 30 different Plane blades. I've only ever come across one that was junk and that obviously had been softened by overheating. The only type that I don't own is the new PMV !!! Mk 111a.

 

[Trafalgar]

The 'best' blades that I have are both old types. A Stanley rule & level from a humble 102 block plane and a blade from an Acorn Plane. Neither of them would be considered the height of tool engineering yet both of these blades seem to be as good as any that I own. I wouldn't swap them for any of the new steel types, not that I think the newer types are poor or inferior. They just don't seem to be any better. The couple of HSS blades that I have certainly retain an edge longer but it also takes me a lot longer to get the sharpness to anywhere near the same level as the old Sheffield blades. In fact I don't think I can get HSS to quite the same level of sharpness. I probably have over 30 different Plane blades. I've only ever come across one that was junk and that obviously had been softened by overheating. The only type that I don't own is the new PMV !!! Mk 111a.

"...not that I think the newer types are poor or inferior. They just don't seem to be any better.

Exactly! And you're not missing a thing with the PMVII.

 

[Trafalgar]

I've personally never owned, borrowed, demo'd, used, or have been associated with in any way a tool that has steel the equal of my 1930ish vintage Marples wooden jack plane.

Interesting. I have several Marples tools, of varying vintages, and whilst the steel is "ok", it's not as good as I Sorby, Ibbotson, or Ward & Payne, at least
on the samples I own.

You either have an exceptional Marples item, or better steel yet lies ahead of you.

BugBear

It will remain a mystery I suppose. Other than perhaps for a few turning tools between now and end of my days, I doubt I'll be buying any more tools. I have all I need. In fact, I could probably stand to get rid of a few.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

It's probably worth remembering the depth and breadth of tools that Marples, for one, were able to execute and/or stock using some of the steels we're discussing:

http://toolemera.com/Trade%20Catalogs/t ... gs193.html

I've personally never owned, borrowed, demo'd, used, or have been associated with in any way a tool that has steel the equal of my 1930ish vintage Marples wooden jack plane.

It's also worth remembering that Marples (and other Sheffield firms) made extensive use of the network of independent self-employed craftsmen (the 'Little Mesters') to supply them (Ashley Iles describes this in his autobiography, and he should know - he was there). That's one reason why their catalogue has so much depth and breadth; there will be tools in that list that carry the Marples stamp, but were never made in a Marples-owned works. It's quite possible - indeed it's a nailed-on certainty - that Marples edge tools varied a bit in edge-taking and edge-holding ability, though all will be to an acceptable standard. The Sheffield way of heat-treatment (judging the colours by eye) used at that time would also have introduced some variability in final product. They didn't really embrace instrument-monitored heat-treatment furnaces until the 1960s (Ashley Isles, again).

It's also very probable that a 1930s Sheffield plane iron is made in O1 steel or something very like it. There was something of an explosion of research into alloy steels from about the 1880s onwards, driven partly by the new Bessemer process reducing the cost of steelmaking, and by the desire to overcome the shortcomings of straight carbon steels. There was also a rapid expansion in the use of electric arc furnaces for special steel production during the 1914-18 war, and a corresponding decline in crucible steel production, which was almost extinct by the late 1930s - the Second World War kept it going for some special steels, but it it finally ceased in the 1960s, by which time production was minute. (ref. Carr and Taplin, 'A History of the British Steel Industry', and K.C.Barraclough 'Sheffield Steel'.)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just HAD to get you to the hundred. You posts are always among the most informative.

 

[Trafalgar]

Very informative, CC. Thanks. I had heard that much of line was made by others to spec. Nice to know that small-shop craftsmen were involved. Perhaps that explains the fine steel I spoke of a few posts above. Somebody was on their game, that's for sure.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just HAD to get you to the hundred. You posts are always among the most informative.

Thank you, Phil. I'm blessed (cursed?) with the sort of mind that has to go trawling for data of all sorts if a subject piques it's interest; consequently, I have a lounge with more textbooks and reading matter stacked up in it than is (probably) strictly healthy, and a head stuffed with all sorts of useless information. I just wish it would go looking for useful information sometimes!

 

[Jacob]

You'd like "Back to the Grindstone: Personal Recollections of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry" - mostly about cutlery but the trades overlap a lot - same people same workshops (or "wheels")