record model T5

[Alf]

Paul, I'm torn between thinking "you poor devil" and "thank goodness someone else spends time thinking about plane frogs like that" :lol:

fwiw, Leslie Harrison (and he's in no way guaranteed to be correct, unfortunately) gives the date of the frog change as 1957, so you could presumably still get a Stay Set with the recessed frog for a few years at least. Assuming the dates are right... :?

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, I'm torn between thinking "you poor devil" and "thank goodness someone else spends time thinking about plane frogs like that" :lol:

Yes, bit sad but keeps me out of mischief :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[David C]

Paul,

I think the 'skeletal' frog was more about ease of machining than metal saving. Could be wrong of course. A perversion also perpetrated by Stanley.

In planes with conventional chipbreaker/cap iron, this part bends the thin blades, and I doubt that the blade contacts the frog surface anywhere except at the heel of the bevel and top of frog. You can usually deduce this from polished areas on the surface of blade which sits on the frog.

Stay set cap irons have less bending effect on the blade. One of their only desireable features except for the thicker metal which is definitely good. L-N improved chipbreakers also have these desireable features.

I find the side handle position extremely unhelpful when shooting, much prefer Hot Dog, a seen on Stan no 9. Too far forward in my opinion. Wonder what other users think? No 9 also seems to have side handle too far forward.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Paul Chapman]

In planes with conventional chipbreaker/cap iron, this part bends the thin blades, and I doubt that the blade contacts the frog surface anywhere except at the heel of the bevel and top of frog. You can usually deduce this from polished areas on the surface of blade which sits on the frog.

David,

I'm sure you are right - the conventional cap iron is a very crude affair and a bit of a disaster when combined with a thin blade. Thick blades, well-designed cap irons, well machined frogs and a flat sole - magic

Cheers

Paul

 

[bugbear]

...and I doubt that the blade contacts the frog surface anywhere except at the heel of the bevel and top of frog. You can usually deduce this from polished areas on the surface of blade which sits on the frog.

Yes - I use to carefully flatten frog surfaces until I realised this...

In "the old days" wooden planes (esp smoothers) were delievered with super tight mouths. Less than zero in some cases.

An accepted (i.e. published by C. Hayward) fix was to put leather or veneer at the TOP of the bed, tipping the blade slightly forward, to open the mouth.

This also (of course) removed the entire blade from the bed except at the arris of the bevel and the top which touched the leather.

BugBear

 

[mahking51]

Hi All,
Slightly OT but does anyone know if LN do replacement iron/chipbreakers that will fit my T5's?
Regards
Martin

 

[Ian Dalziel]

This also (of course) removed the entire blade from the bed except at the arris of the bevel and the top which touched the leather.

some planemakers use the 3 point contact....because of this.

getting the blade clamped securely and evenly across the width of the bed/frog is very very difficult (azimouth) the tripod method makes it that little bit more positive, but more relevant on infills or fixed frog planes
with adjustable frogs getting a perfectly set width is quite difficult but not impossible....thats how someone like DC can tune a plane....he has taught himself the planes weaknesses then improves them with excellant results.

Like bugbears comment on screw heads being aligned....a nice to see but this takes away even torque across screw heads and can also result in slight differences across the width. anytime i have ever seen it done one or more screws has to be either backed off or tightened more.

Just wondering if anyone here has actutually run a fixed head dti across the inside of their frog plate at the mouth to see if its off and by how much.

one of the reasons infills and woodies were made with fixed beds and frog plates....the associated problems were engineered out.

This is also a question i asked Karl with the design of the 98...i asked why he doesnt have an adjustable frog or adjustable mouth.....he simply said why introduce a possible flaw...the plane is a smoother set the mouth to suit a smoother and use it as such.



I

 

[woodbloke]

mahking51 wrote:

Slightly OT but does anyone know if LN do replacement iron/chipbreakers that will fit my T5's?

I wouldn't mind having another go at fitting a LN blade to my old T5 if I could find the correct LN blade/chipbreaker. Any where can they be obtained please? - Rob

 

[bugbear]

Like bugbears comment on screw heads being aligned....a nice to see but this takes away even torque across screw heads and can also result in slight differences across the width. anytime i have ever seen it done one or more screws has to be either backed off or tightened more.

The most amazingly ridiculous thing I've heard achieves perfect torque with aligned screw heads.

Get ready.

You manufacture screws with double depth heads.

You tighten them to correct torque, mark the angle, and remove.

You machine way the first thickness, and cut a new slot at the right angle.

Re-insert, re-torque, and you have aligned slots!

BugBear (who thinks that is CRAZY!)

 

[Paul Chapman]

I wouldn't mind having another go at fitting a LN blade to my old T5 if I could find the correct LN blade/chipbreaker. Any where can they be obtained please?

What was the problem when you tried before, Rob? Was the position of the slot for the "Y" lever in the cap iron different from the position of the slot in a normal cap iron for a 2" blade? Or was it that the "Y" lever wasn't long enough when you fitted a thicker blade? Or something else perhaps :?

Cheers

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - yes, that's about it. In the LN blade (not the cap iron) the rectangular slot was too far back (away from the cutting edge) as I recall so that the 'Y' lever didn't engage into the slot - it just wasn't going to ever fit - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Rob,

If I understand you correctly, it sounds as if the "Y" lever isn't long enough to engage in the thicker blade/cap iron combination you wish to fit. If that's the case, you can get longer "Y" levers and longer screws to join the blade to the cap iron. I had this problem when I fitted Clifton blades and cap irons to my Records. I spoke to Mike Hudson Tel: 07860 535262 (always very helpful) at Clico (who make Clifton) and he sent me some longer "Y" levers and screws (better not tell him you want to fit LN ). You can easily get the old "Y" lever out by punching out the pin - probably have to punch it the correct side and I can't remember whether it was left or right :?

Alternatively, I remember that Jarviser who posts on here lengthened the "Y" lever on a plane he restored - do a search for his name on the membership list and he has a website where he explains it all. Whether it's possible to modify your existing "Y" lever might depend on whether it's an old one made in one piece or the more recent type which is in two pieces. As yours is an old T5 I imagine it's a one piece which would be OK to modify.

If I've not understood you correctly, ignore the above and let me know :wink:

Cheers

Paul

 

[David C]

Martin,

I answered same question in another thread.

You need 95 thou" replacement blade from L-N site. These are 2.4 mm thick, you might get one from Mike Hancock at classic hand tools but he may have to order. Hock A2 is virtually the same.

With improved chipbreaker there may be an issue with the 2" size.

Measure front edge to first edge of slot on your existing C/B.

Then phone or e mail L-N with this info. for suitable C/B.

Air mail post comes in 6 days or less!

David Charlesworth

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - I think that what I will do is to take my T5 and blade along to the next show or shop I go to where LN is exhibiting or being sold and ask them to supply a blade/chipbeaker combo to fit it. Having made one slight goof with this plane I'm a bit reluctant to splash out another wedge of dosh without being absolutely cast iron certain that the thing is going to fit. If I did start to mess about with it and the whole thing went TU I'd get a bit irate with it I think. Its only used on the shooting boards so I can afford to bide my time a little till the next occasion I'm allowed to go to a show :roll: :roll: - Rob

 

[Jarviser]

Hi Rob,....
Alternatively, I remember that Jarviser who posts on here lengthened the "Y" lever on a plane he restored - do a search for his name on the membership list and he has a website where he explains it all. Whether it's possible to modify your existing "Y" lever might depend on whether it's an old one made in one piece or the more recent type which is in two pieces. As yours is an old T5 I imagine it's a one piece which would be OK to modify.
Cheers
Paul

I tried the "Dentistry" technique on an older forged Y lever and it would not solder, thus I only suggest it for the newer steel 2-part levers. Solder is funny stuff and does not always "run" onto some steels.
There was an excellent article by Jeff Gorman in "Good Wood" recently on soldering tabs onto the rear of the cap iron instead. That needs a bit more metalworking skill. Of course if the LN blade is for a LN plane and not the "Stanley Replacement" type the slot may be in the wrong place anyway.

 

[ivan]

Lengthening the tail of the Y lever reduce adjustment sensitivity. I have had good results more simply bonding 3mm steel slips to the back of cap irons with industrial superglue (Locktite from the local industrial estate). The slips fit either side of the adjuster hole and lie inside the long slot of the iron itelf. Now with a bit of filing of the mouth, you can fit the iron from a LN No.9

I considered soldering/brazing but this can distort the cap iron, and it's better if this (Clifton 2 piece) is as flat as possible. Only rarely is any rebonding necessary. When I've got time I promise myself to drill and tap for a permanent solution.

LN 'chipbreakers' whilst much heavier and better made than the standard item, are still technically similar (ie to the 'bent design') Tightening the screw that holds chipbreaker to blade still bends the blade.....The 2 piece design is in 2 pieces specifically to prevent any distortion of the blade itself and to keep it clamped flat on the frog.

 

[Jarviser]

Lengthening the tail of the Y lever reduce adjustment sensitivity. I have had good results more simply bonding 3mm steel slips to the back of cap irons with industrial superglue (Locktite from the local industrial estate). ....
I considered soldering/brazing but this can distort the cap iron, and it's better if this (Clifton 2 piece) is as flat as possible. ......

Hi Ivan. My Y lever mod is more for reducing backlash than for overcoming the problem due to thicker blades, though one is worsened by the other. I did it because I didn't fancy fiddling around with my nice new Hock cap iron which was probably worth more than the plane.
Jeff Gorman's technique (Good Wood GW180) for using thicker blades is like yours, except that he uses two standard cap irons - one in the plane and one to cut up for the slips! Using similar mild steels you should be able to use soft solder which only requires warming up the steel with a blowlamp until the solder and electricians flux melt which will not distort like brazing would. With a Clifton I think you had the right approach.
Jeff recommends making a new hole in a one-piece slip 11mm wide rather than trying to solder two fiddly bits on,
I'm going to try it on my old Stanley #5 which has a japanese iron of standard thickness but still has about 2 turns backlash.

 

[Alf]

Tightening the screw that holds chipbreaker to blade still bends the blade....

Now I'm not so sure that isn't exactly what's required - making the blade contact at two points, rather than having to try and get it bedded perfectly across the whole surface of the frog. Of course if it is bedded perfectly across the whole face of the frog I assume that's better (?), but in this imperfect world? I dunno - I can't quote scientific studies or show definitive stats but it's just the impression I've had for some time now. I must admit I hadn't given any thought at all to a two piece cap iron being somehow flatter (lazy term, but you know what I mean). With the action of the lever cap on it, doesn't it also bend the iron?

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

I must admit I hadn't given any thought at all to a two piece cap iron being somehow flatter (lazy term, but you know what I mean). With the action of the lever cap on it, doesn't it also bend the iron?

I have the Stay-set two-piece cap irons fitted to all my bench planes. The reason I went for them is that I believe it is the best designed cap iron for preventing the blade from bending. It's also one of the reasons I went for Clifton planes when upgrading from my Records. I reckon that the combination of a well-machined bedrock style frog, a thick blade and a Stay-set cap iron is probably the best overall design currently available. And it's so easy to adjust the mouth :wink:

Cheers

Paul

 

[Jarviser]

I had a go at the Jeff Gorman method. It's photographedhere if anyone is interested.