Record 77a bullnose - a review

[condeesteso]

Just got hold of a nice record 77a bullnose plane, and as I plan to tune it a bit, then be using it in earnest, I thought I would chart my progress.
I chose the 77a after asking questions here, and looked for a clean one with both shims present (to adjust mouth). I had considered a new premium bullnose, and have a Veritas medium shoulder which is virtually perfect in my opinion. So the Veritas would have been an obvious choice, but I suspected a decent 77a would have a lot of potential to be good, maybe nearly as good. And it cost me about £30. OK, boot fair guys, you got one for..... =D>

Here it is as it arrived, has an ex-military mark (?) - the upward arrow, and date 1957. Very slight surface rust on the adjuster and blade but really slight so it will clean up easily. Pleased to notice there is very little play in the depth adjustment, loads of blade left - in fact no sign at all it has ever been honed. The screw to remove front bit (OK, it will have a name... let's have it then, nose maybe) is mint, never been removed I think.

So this one looks really promising - as close to a new one as I could wish for, plus some patination, even better then.

I'll report back on the light tuning, and how good I can get it to work.... soon as poss.

 

[AndyT]

Yes, that's what the army needs - properly planed rebates!

I think that's a good plane in good nick. Certainly a better buy than one of these

which I really hope nobody thinks is worth Rutlands' asking price of £59.95!
I bought one in a sale years ago for a lot less than that, and although I have managed to use it for its intended purpose, I'm sure it's not a patch on your old Record.

 

[woodbloke]

Nice little plane, but probably the least useful of all the bench planes. I wouldn't dream of spending even a tiny fraction of Jimi's weekly booty fund on one if I needed a bullnose as a 'user'. Just my view, of course, but I endorse youre view on the Veritas shoulder plane...much more useful - Rob

 

[bugbear]

And it cost me about £30.

That's an excellent price. One could attend very, very many boot fairs and not even see a bullnose in good nick, let alone cheap-ish.

The way to get bargains at boot fairs is buying what's there (supply driven).

If you want something particular (demand driven), they're not very efficient, unless what you want is very common indeed.

BugBear

 

[Mike Wingate]

I see 4 models on the market toolstand at £40.

 

[AndyT]

I see 4 models on the market toolstand at £40.

Sorry Mike - what is this 'market toolstand'?

 

[jimi43]

And it cost me about £30.

That's an excellent price. One could attend very, very many boot fairs and not even see a bullnose in good nick, let alone cheap-ish.

The way to get bargains at boot fairs is buying what's there (supply driven).

If you want something particular (demand driven), they're not very efficient, unless what you want is very common indeed.

BugBear

Nearly right...demand driven before 7am - supply driven when the tourists wake up...have their Coco Pops...get in the car...do the shopping then visit the bootfair on the way home. :mrgreen:

I never use shops anymore for any tools...even Axminster...and that's saying something.

FleaBay fills the rest of the needs....oh...and I got a bullnose at a bootfair...in fact...I've had three...haven't I Douglas! :wink:

Jim

 

[bugbear]

....oh...and I got a bullnose at a bootfair..

Jim

So did I, and it was cheap. But it's a good job my need wasn't urgent.

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

Hi all - I actually wanted to go through this in case it was useful or helpful to anyone who is starting out, or in the earlier stages of using hand-tools, especially if on a tighter budget.
I do feel quite strongly (many here do I believe) that older planes can be acquired at bargain prices and can be tuned quite quickly into fine tools, so if you can't afford a new Veritas, LN etc, this is the way to go (though not on a bullnose to start... that I concede).
Re the price I felt it was actually about right off ebay, and give or take a few quid that's what they go for. It's a good example.
I don't agree it's the least useful plane - there have been plenty of moments recently (bench build) where it would have been very close to hand.

So, here it is in bits:

The front section is very precisely located by 2 pins:

The lever cap is a solid casting, and the seating to the blade is well machined. I gave it a quick pass over the autosol / mdf just to see how flat it was, and check the leading edge in particular - very happy with that.

The blade has never been honed and seems to have its original primary on. Some interesting angles (to me anyway) going on here. The bed angle is 19 degrees (best I can measure, it's certainly lower than a round 20), and the primary on blade is 28 degrees, so with a secondary over 50 degree pitch... high for a shoulder plane I thought.
Anyway, the corners of the blade fall away on the back... problem:

The sole is very good and extremely close to flat (with blade loaded up).

The adjuster is nicely machined, and runs very smoothly on the thread:

So I need to remove stock to restore the blade corners, and the blade needs to be dead straight along the cutting edge and square to the plane body, as there is very little lateral adjustment available (that could be increased by removing material from the upper sides of the blade, but if it is sharpened square in the first place it's fine).
I do it this way, those of you who actually have a life will be on the Tormek by now:

checking to ensure the blade is square in the body:

I would normally have the waterstones out now, but this will do, a DMT fine, and autosol on mdf:

Getting close, but still needs the secondary. Will resume later and get ready to test it.

 

[Paul Chapman]

The blade has never been honed and seems to have its original primary on. Some interesting angles (to me anyway) going on here. The bed angle is 19 degrees (best I can measure, it's certainly lower than a round 20), and the primary on blade is 28 degrees, so with a secondary over 50 degree pitch... high for a shoulder plane I thought.

When I bought my Clifton shoulder planes, I discussed with Mike Hudson the best angles to hone the blades. He recommended honing just one bevel at about 25 degrees and not using a secondary bevel. I've always stuck to this and found it very satisfactory.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Mike Wingate]

Altrincham Market, Thursday mornings.

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks Paul, nicely timed, I'll try and get back on this tomorrow or Sunday - lower the primary (from the current 28 to 25). I did suspect a total angle of max 45 would be expected, ideally less for end grain... but I'll experiment and report back.

 

[Modernist]

Looks like a very good buy, and , contrary to the comment above, I would not be without one. Try adjusting rebates on installed windows without one for example. I did originally buy an Anant which was completely useless at any price as they appear to be hand linished, rather than ground, and mine was 2.5 deg out of square on the sole. Fortunately Rutlands were happy to exchange it for a Veritas which is a gem.

 

[woodbloke]

...I don't agree it's the least useful plane

I've been at this game for nearly forty years and it's never been a 'ooh...must have one of those' type of planes, as I've never, in all that time ever actually needed one. As a 'stand alone' plane in the arsenal of useful kit, the bulnose IMO, comes bottom of the pile - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Rob, I agree it's not a 'must have' and I never said it was. I didn't set out to promote the usefulness of a bullnose... it was an exercise in tuning a Record 77a to see how good I could get it (noting too that others may well do better). I could just as easily have chosen a Rule & Level 10 1/2, or a straight No4. But today anyway I was using the bullnose in some stopped rebates on the bench. I have 10 of those stopped rebates and it was that, the rebate plane or a paring chisel. The bullnose was first choice. As you say we are in the area of opinion here. When I can match your 40 years I may agree with you, shouldn't be long now.

 

[woodbloke]

Rob, I agree it's not a 'must have' and I never said it was. I didn't set out to promote the usefulness of a bullnose... it was an exercise in tuning a Record 77a to see how good I could get it (noting too that others may well do better). I could just as easily have chosen a Rule & Level 10 1/2, or a straight No4. But today anyway I was using the bullnose in some stopped rebates on the bench. I have 10 of those stopped rebates and it was that, the rebate plane or a paring chisel. The bullnose was first choice. As you say we are in the area of opinion here. When I can match your 40 years I may agree with you, shouldn't be long now.

Doug, fair enoughski :lol: I prefer to use my little LN 1/2" shoulder plane for small stuff and the medium Veritas for bigger stuff. The little brass LN is a real gem though - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Dear Rob - you just name-checked close to four hundred quids worth*, on two fairly specialist planes. (*At retail, that is).

I rest my case.

 

[woodbloke]

Dear Rob - you just name-checked close to four hundred quids worth*, on two fairly specialist planes. (*At retail, that is).

I rest my case.

...ah yebut Doug, I didn't pay 'retail' :wink: :wink: for one of them - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Finished working on the 77a yesterday, and got it immediately to work on some stopped rebates (bench build, ash... big stuff).
Most of the time was spent on the blade - down to 24 degrees (Paul's comment) - a degree lower as I suspected I would want a micro-bevel on it.
have now got a fully flat / polished back, and a micro bevel at about 28 degrees.

The edge is breaking up a little - I think I have no choice other than to increase pitch of secondary bevel. As I won't be using this on end-grain I think that is the best option. So I plan a 30 degree secondary which should support the edge better (total 49 degrees).
The cap-iron was contacting the blade slightly heavier on the left, so it was hand-ground a little to compensate (on a DMT fine):

To improve the blade adjustment (smoothness) I increased the rounding on the lock-down screw:

It does work really well, but the blade won't take the very low angles and hold its edge. Tiny break-ups appeared after use on ash, taking a fine cut.
But the idea here was to push this tool as far as I could with the original blade etc. I'm happy it is very useable, just need to up the secondary angle a bit.
I really like the way it's made - solid (1lb 6 oz), no paint, no flakey plating. The body and components are all very well machined - so it responds well to a bit of tuning.
It is a reminder that the good old Records (and Stanleys) were good enough to be tuned and work very well.

 

[jimi43]

Ok Douglas...I will have to stop meeting with you mate....

It's ALL your fault! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Never let the grass grow...that's me mate! :mrgreen:

Jim