Re; the 10 shavings = a hump; I think this should only be a problem if the plane is by some sort of machine. In practice, it's counteracted by the fact that the plane is held by a human being . It's just a question of technique, surely?
Really stupid question about hand planes.
- Thread starter John Brown
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bugbear
Established Member
John Brown":j76tcgn6 said:
The question of how to make a flat surface using a plane has been (loudly) answered.
No-one has responded your interesting point about "flat soled" hand planes versus "step-soled" machines.
BugBear
David C
In Memorium
BB,
I thought I had answered it !
Machine planers have the correct geometry to produce flat surfaces, bench planes generally do not. Technique and stop shavings are required.
David Charlesworth
I thought I had answered it !
Machine planers have the correct geometry to produce flat surfaces, bench planes generally do not. Technique and stop shavings are required.
David Charlesworth
GazPal
Established Member
John Brown":58unsf02 said:
The problem encountered with hand planing is/can be avoided via practice at planing straight and true and adopting techniques already described by others. A great deal then becomes second nature and is done without putting much - if any - thought into the process involved (Hence the possible lack of many answers to your question), but you'll tend to find less of a problem planing straight and true when using increasingly minimal blade/iron set and taking fine shavings as the surface being trued is tamed.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Hand held power planers cut a trench and could in theory precisely remove parallel trenches to flatten a surface, but only if it's flat to start with :roll: . But they tend not to be, and power planers are really difficult unless just removing stuff quite roughly - a powered scrub plane.David C":2yudxw1m said:
It makes no difference and they are a lot easier to use, but slower!
Technique yes, for both. Any effort to remove high spots is effectively a "stopped" shaving i.e. it starts and/or stops within the length of the workpiece.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
bugbear":1aod968c said:
I can't remember where I saw this, but someone reported checking over an old wooden rebate plane, and finding that the sole ahead of the blade was a hair above the sole behind the blade, though both 'halves' of the sole were flat. Just like a machine planer, or power hand-planer.
I think it's probably fair to say that as either the planemaker or the person who 'adjusted' the sole thusly is more than likely making shavings in the great workshop in the sky, we won't know if this was deliberate or a happy accident, but it would be interesting to know how it affected the plane's performance, if at all.
Just a thought to ponder on - how flat is 'flat'?
Alf
Established Member
That reminds me - doesn't the #75 bullnose have the nose piece higher than the rest of the sole? Or so I've seen reported (often). Reported even more often is what an utter stinker the #75 is to use. Connection?Cheshirechappie":e0jxsu74 said:
I know we've had the flat hand plane/stepped machine bed discussion before, but blessed if I can find it. However, I do seem to recall that someone observed that wouldn't you have to have a range of steps in the plane sole, to cover the range of shaving thicknesses? The discussion should be in the archive somewhere - if you can find it.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Digit":2gx6d76b said:
Yes - I agree.
The degree of flatness required is that which is appropriate to the job in hand. A few posts ago, Jacob mentioned that a slightly convex handplane sole would give you more control, and I think he's onto something there (though the convexity would have to be within sensible limits, obviously; otherwise you have a compass plane). We know that concave is undesirable, and a 'truly' flat sole gives an effectively convex plane anyway - the three fixed points of toe, heel and tip of cutter will not be a straight line, because if the sole is flat, the cutter must protrude below it or it wouldn't cut.
Another factor is that both the plane and the workpiece will deflect slightly under cutting forces. Indeed, a plane will deflect slightly under it's own weight, but the deflection is unlikely to be significant compared to the other factors involved in planing a piece of wood to a workable flatness. Also, planing technique has evolved to negate the negative factors.
Actually, there's an interesting parallel from the world of engineering. To file a surface flat, you don't use a file that's flat; a so-called 'Flat File' actually has a very slight belly in it - you can see this if you sight down the length of the file. So if you want to take off a very slight hump to leave a workpiece flat, you use the bellied 'flat file' with a bit of finger pressure on the area that needs attention, and the bellying of the file lifts the rest of the cutting surface very slightly clear of the surface. A 'Hand File' is flat, but won't file flat - the best you can do is to leave the work slightly convex. (If you want something REALLY flat, you can't do it by filing alone. You'll need to follow up by scraping to a surface plate, or resort to some very precise grinding or honing equipment.)
AaronWright
New member
if i am going to join 2 boards together the first thing I do is sight down the board to get a mental picture of where any high or low bits are. Lets say there was a couple of high bits I would just take few shavings off these bits so they wont cause any problem for when u start to straighten out the board. When straightening I would just take a a continous shaving front to back. Making sure to keep the plane square. then on the next peice i would do the same .Then I would try them together to see what areas needed tweeking Then all i do is make the boards fit each other as long as the fit each other and no gaps youve done it right
At times you can worry about getting it perfect and all you end up doing is going past the place when u had it right and make it worse
At times you can worry about getting it perfect and all you end up doing is going past the place when u had it right and make it worse
Alf":3gm6l52l said:
It's something Patrick Leach says ( http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan10.htm#num75) -
"The section of the sole ahead of the iron is not co-planar with the sole behind the iron. The plane is purposely made this way to assist it with its cut (you guys what owns the 'lectrical jointahs should know why the plane's sole is the way it is) so there's no need to practice sole lapping on it. "
- but that certainly is not true on my one. Maybe it's his equivalent of the fake streets drawn by map makers to prove that someone has copied their work - he certainly gets quoted on eBay without attribution often enough!
Alf
Established Member
I had a feeling I'd seen it elsewhere though, several times - I tend to disregard pretty much all of Blood & Gore as a primary source of anything, 'cos he's so damn rude about the combi planes. :lol:
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Interesting. Makes sense.Cheshirechappie":1vlobpfu said:
I often wonder about the weird obsession with flattening chisel faces. Never made sense to me. If you want to pare a flat surface the chisel face has to be convex to some extent.
You can see the problem here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOvkNuwO_YM
Rob Cosman doing a commercial for a very expensive diamond plate burbles on knowingly about flat faces etc but then completely fails to pare the end grain of his sample. He cuts a notch instead. Not that he seems to notice this himself!
Hilarious!
David C
In Memorium
I fear the joke is on you, Jacob.
jimi43
Established Member
On the subject of stepped front sole, I noted that my Mosley rebate plane was like this in this thread (CLICK PHOTO)
Each separate part of the sole is relatively flat but they are stepped as you can see from the photo.
The shavings are the best I have ever had from a woodie so clearly this stepping is intentional and works....
Note also that the edge of the iron is level with the rear sole (only slightly protruding) and has maximum support.
Jim
Each separate part of the sole is relatively flat but they are stepped as you can see from the photo.
The shavings are the best I have ever had from a woodie so clearly this stepping is intentional and works....
Note also that the edge of the iron is level with the rear sole (only slightly protruding) and has maximum support.
Jim
Jacob":3g2r6qpm said:
Jacob
Am I missing something? I am sure he meant to do that, he even mentions cutting downwards. Are you just being deliberately obtuse? [-X
Mick
I've just been out to check two of mine Jim and one is like yours and 'tother isn't.
I suspect that it is wear.
This business about flatness is such that I don't even think about it unless my planing goes up the creek.
Roy.
I suspect that it is wear.
This business about flatness is such that I don't even think about it unless my planing goes up the creek.
Roy.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Could be just wear?
In use the pressure is on the front end which could cause it to wear faster. If it was deliberate then the difference would have to be the same as the thickness of the shaving or it'd be rocking about from one bit of sole to the other, just like a worn out plane with a convex sole. Which incidentally can work perfectly well - you are working to the line, not to a depth determined by the kit as you would with a router.
In use the pressure is on the front end which could cause it to wear faster. If it was deliberate then the difference would have to be the same as the thickness of the shaving or it'd be rocking about from one bit of sole to the other, just like a worn out plane with a convex sole. Which incidentally can work perfectly well - you are working to the line, not to a depth determined by the kit as you would with a router.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
But what is the point of his demo? You could do that notch with any sharp chisel even with a back bevel or a totally convex "belly". Sharp pen-knife for that matter.MickCheese":3u79n9jv said:
He doesn't explain why you need to flatten and polish the whole back. Carvers don't do that even though they need a clean chisel finish and total control.
Being deliberately obtuse? More like RC being inadvertently pointless.
