Real need / necessity for a block plane

[That would work]

.......Some are 25 degrees, mine is 12 degrees.

Most are 25 degrees, given the pre-imminence of Record and Stanley in the plane market. Even at 12 degrees you are only 3 degrees lower in attack angle that a two handed plane, and I hardly think that justifies the claim that block planes are better for end grain. I'm not saying you made that claim, by the way, but you did seek to justify it. I'm simply pointing out that this is one of many hand-me-down pieces of wisdom in woodworking which actually aren't as wise as some people think.

If I had more time I would test it properly and publish much dubious data on it... maybe not.

 

[thetyreman]

I sold my lie neilsen 102 block plane, the quality was outstanding but the reason for selling in the end was hardly ever using it, I found that I could use my no4 or no4 1/2 for the same jobs 90% of the time, the only advantage was how well the block plane performed on end grain, the low angle means it will last slightly longer between sharpening, but there's really not much in it.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Might as well chip in with my experience.

When I was starting out back in the 1980s, the standard of plane-making wasn't at it's highest. I ended up with two block planes, one low-angle, one standard angle. Neither worked well for me, and at the time, I didn't have the plane fettling knowledge that's now readily available. I also bought a second-hand Preston bullnose plane - the first vintage tool I owned. It fitted one hand nicely, and worked beautifully, so it tended to be picked up when small planing jobs needed doing. The block planes ended up sidelined.

Later, when Lie-Nielsen planes became available in the UK during the 1990s, I bought a LN low-angle block plane. It's a beautifully made tool and works superbly, but I find it a bit too heavy to use one-handed, so the old bullnose was still 'small plane' of choice. It still is.

Using a bullnose plane for block plane duties is 'all wrong', and I wouldn't recommend the practice to others, but, for me, it works, and better than my block planes.

Is a block plane a necessity? It's purely down to personal preference. As I discovered - unintentionally - there are other ways than using one, but a small plane of some sort is often very useful.

 

[AndyT]

Interesting angle there.
I wonder if anyone wants to offer a similar good word for the funny old chariot plane? A bit more like a block plane, as the blade does not extend full width, but with the cutting edge very near the front.
They are numerous enough that they can't all have been bought out of curiosity or in error, but I've never seen any argument as to why anyone would need one.

 

[ED65]

Even at 12 degrees you are only 3 degrees lower in attack angle that a two handed plane, and I hardly think that justifies the claim that block planes are better for end grain.

Apologies for correcting your maths but it's actually 8°, or at least that's the intention. Block planes (not just the low-angle version) are one of the few planes where you're supposed to/advised to hone at 25°. Here's one of the diagrams showing this from some book or a website:

Now that said, I still agree with you. More end grain has been, and still is today, planed with standard bench planes than with any form of low-angle plane.

Those struggling with getting their bench planes to perform well at this task may need to up their sharpening game. It wouldn't hurt any to know that skewing effectively lowers AOA.

I wonder if anyone wants to offer a similar good word for the funny old chariot plane? ...never seen any argument as to why anyone would need one.

Coming neatly around to one of the persistent claims/counter-claims in the thread, they were valued (by some) for end-grain work, as well as for very highly figured woods and outright burls.

 

[Bm101]

Having assessed some of the varied answers from respected and experienced members it's clear to me that the main thing that is becoming increasingly obvious that as Derek points out, each of us finds different solutions to suit our needs. :-$ :-"
So I'll post this like the Government burying bad news after a terrorist attack.
I'm really not that bad but I justified this as an apron plane at the time.
I don't own an apron.
Breaking aris's I reasoned.
Yeh. I know.... Bottle of red probably.
My last tool purchase because I wanted it. I have long learnt since then btw.
Still. It cost far less than that 50pence for scale is worth.

Look at it though. :wink:

 

[Nigel Burden]

I have three block planes. A damaged Stanley 9 1/2, A Millers Falls, and a Record, can't remember the number but it's a tap adjust. All three cost in total less than £5 so I'm not too worried that I only use them occasionally. To be honest my Stanley #4 is much better at planing end grain if it's sharp and set to take a shallow cut.

Nigel.

 

[AndyT]

Having assessed some of the varied answers from respected and experienced members it's clear to me that the main thing that is becoming increasingly obvious that as Derek points out, each of us finds different solutions to suit our needs. :-$ :-"
So I'll post this like the Government burying bad news after a terrorist attack.
I'm really not that bad but I justified this as an apron plane at the time.
I don't own an apron.
Breaking aris's I reasoned.
Yeh. I know.... Bottle of red probably.
My last tool purchase because I wanted it. I have long learnt since then btw.
Still. It cost far less than that 50pence for scale is worth.

Look at it though. :wink:

That's sweet! And even after checking eBay for those highly sought after coins, a bargain indeed. Any clue as to maker, age or country of origin?

 

[MikeG.]

Even at 12 degrees you are only 3 degrees lower in attack angle that a two handed plane, and I hardly think that justifies the claim that block planes are better for end grain.

Apologies for correcting your maths but it's actually 8°.......

Whilst you're comparing 2 low angle bevel-up planes there rather than a 45 degree bevel down smoother to a block plane, the principle is the same, and I've obviously goofed somewhere.

 

[Bm101]

.

That's sweet! And even after checking eBay for those highly sought after coins, a bargain indeed. Any clue as to maker, age or country of origin?

No Andy. Sorry. It came with two luthiers curved planes. One welded/soldered to fix a crack. Paid no more than a score for all three from memory. I'll post pics of all three tomorrow if it's of interest. It's very nicely made for what it is. I presumed a luthier had knocked it up tbh.
(Edited for typo)

 

[woodbloke66]

....few planes where you're supposed to/advised to hone at 25°.

I've no doubt that this is sound advice for a block plane blade, but users of LN block planes with their A2 blades (such as myself) run into difficulties at 25deg. Some time ago, I honed my original A2 blade at 30deg and subsequently noticed that the sole of the plane behind the mouth was covered in deepish scratches where the edge had disintegrated and the resultant debris had scored the sole. Raising the honing angle to 32deg on the Veritas guide solved the problem. The other solution is to buy a identical Quangsheng replacement blade from Workshop Heaven which can then be honed at a lower angle
Without wishing to get into another interminable discussion about honing, David Charlesworth also recommends raising the honing angle slightly past 30deg for A2 steel - Rob

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

....few planes where you're supposed to/advised to hone at 25°.

I've no doubt that this is sound advice for a block plane blade, but users of LN block planes with their A2 blades (such as myself) run into difficulties at 25deg. Some time ago, I honed my original A2 blade at 30deg and subsequently noticed that the sole of the plane behind the mouth was covered in deepish scratches where the edge had disintegrated and the resultant debris had scored the sole. Raising the honing angle to 32deg on the Veritas guide solved the problem. The other solution is to buy a identical Quangsheng replacement blade from Workshop Heaven which can then be honed at a lower angle
Without wishing to get into another interminable discussion about honing, David Charlesworth also recommends raising the honing angle slightly past 30deg for A2 steel - Rob

I completed some extensive testing shooting hard wood end grain with 25 degree A2 bevels on 12 degree beds.

Edges lasts significantly longer on 12 degree beds than 30 degree bevels on 45 degree beds. A2 is very comfortable with a 25 degree bevel with a low angle bed.

I prefer O1 and PM-V11 steel for BD planing, but A2 is perfectly fine on low bed block planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

....few planes where you're supposed to/advised to hone at 25°.

I've no doubt that this is sound advice for a block plane blade, but users of LN block planes with their A2 blades (such as myself) run into difficulties at 25deg. Some time ago, I honed my original A2 blade at 30deg and subsequently noticed that the sole of the plane behind the mouth was covered in deepish scratches where the edge had disintegrated and the resultant debris had scored the sole. Raising the honing angle to 32deg on the Veritas guide solved the problem. The other solution is to buy a identical Quangsheng replacement blade from Workshop Heaven which can then be honed at a lower angle
Without wishing to get into another interminable discussion about honing, David Charlesworth also recommends raising the honing angle slightly past 30deg for A2 steel - Rob

A fellow in the US (Steve Elliot) did some testing on this and found chipping to stop somewhere around 33 degrees on A2. These are tiny chips that we are talking about, though, and they do affect longevity, but for someone honing fast, it wouldn't really matter.

Another fellow here in the US who was at the time doing professional woodwork entirely by hand, including finish planing with nothing following other than burnishing with shavings, was using a lie nielsen smoother at 30 degrees and having problems with tiny lines on his work. I had posted a video around the same time and he went to 33 or 34 degrees and the problems ceased.

Anyone who scrapes and sands after planing, I couldn't say whether the loss of clearance and lack of chipping offset.

I had the same chipping issues very early on, but go back and forth between planing only and planing/scraping lightly and shaving burnishing. If scraping, the small chipping is a non-issue.

After testing 01/v11/a2/m2/3V/CPM M4 last year, I can't see a practical reason to buy a new plane with A2 in it unless nothing else is available. I have an LN smoother still (admittedly used very little), and have refitted it with a self-made powder stainless (seemingly the same steel as V11)

Durability in long grain for A2 was slightly longer than relatively hard O1, but the condition of the A2 edge after the point where the O1 stopped wasn't great. A2 kind of "lets go" once it gets to a certain point and surface quality goes to pot very fast.

 

[D_W]

A2 at about 800 feet (what is the dark black void at the edge - up and down the edges, there are many more of these)
https://i.imgur.com/SIepg1z.jpg

O1 at 780 feet (where it stopped cutting in the test). A deep groove suggests something untoward was in the wood, but O1 tends to "heal" itself with additional wear.
https://i.imgur.com/J2OMH4M.jpg

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

David, your references are for BD planes. I would not disagree with 30+ degrees for A2 when in a Bailey or other BD plane. But the topic here is a block plane. This has a 12 degree bed and holds the blade bevel up.

For a 12 degree bed BU plane the situation is very different from a 45 degree BD bed. The lower vector is a game changer. Don’t forget the comparison I made of BU vs BD shooting planes. This was a controlled study.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... Plane.html

The results were clearcut: 25 degree A2 blade BU on a 12 degree bed (Veritas Shooting Plane) held its edge twice as long as a 30 degree A2 blade BD on a 45 degree bed (Lie Nielson #51 shooting plane). Both planed the same wood and were used on a Stanley #52 shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit to add: I have used a Veritas LA jack on a shooting plane and to smooth end grain for over a decade. For most of these years the blade was A2 and it was always ground and honed at 25 degrees. In this time, the low bevel angle remained consistent and reliable .. and chip free.

Note that I am not a fan of A2, but give credit where it is due.

 

[MikeG.]

......... the topic here is a block plane. This has a 12 degree bed and holds the blade bevel up.......

Most don't, though. Most are 25 degrees, given the huge numbers of Record and Stanley block planes in circulation.

 

[D_W]

David, your references are for BD planes. I would not disagree with 30+ degrees for A2 when in a Bailey or other BD plane. But the topic here is a block plane. This has a 12 degree bed and holds the blade bevel up.

For a 12 degree bed BU plane the situation is very different from a 45 degree BD bed. The lower vector is a game changer. Don’t forget the comparison I made of BU vs BD shooting planes. This was a controlled study.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... Plane.html

The results were clearcut: 25 degree A2 blade BU on a 12 degree bed (Veritas Shooting Plane) held its edge twice as long as a 30 degree A2 blade BD on a 45 degree bed (Lie Nielson #51 shooting plane). Both planed the same wood and were used on a Stanley #52 shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit to add: I have used a Veritas LA jack on a shooting plane and to smooth end grain for over a decade. For most of these years the blade was A2 and it was always ground and honed at 25 degrees. In this time, the low bevel angle remained consistent and reliable .. and chip free.

Note that I am not a fan of A2, but give credit where it is due.

Yes on the bevel down, I'm aware of that. I'm using the 40 degree bed you recommended in an infill shooter, and though I don't shoot too often, it's held up very well. Shockingly well, actually, at very high hardness.

While A2 works OK in a block plane, fully hardened O1 would do just as well (recognizing the fact that the reason A2 is preferred by manufacturers is that it warps far less and probably costs less overall to use due to less post-hardening machining).

 

[--Tom--]

Describing type of steel independently of heat treatment will lead to circular debates. A2 heat treated by one manufacturer may be very different to A2 heat treated by another, and HT has the potential to have as much of an impact on edge quality than the steel type.

 

[thetyreman]

I had an instance today where a block plane would have been handy, rounding over or chamfering a door threshold and removing the arrises of some skirting, I can see why they are used for site work.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

While A2 works OK in a block plane, fully hardened O1 would do just as well (recognizing the fact that the reason A2 is preferred by manufacturers is that it warps far less and probably costs less overall to use due to less post-hardening machining).

David, I agree. What I want to add is that I prefer O1 and PM-V11 to A2 by miles, because these steels take a much finer edge and hold it well enough. However, should one have a low angle block plane with A2 steel, or be offered one at a good price, then the A2 blade is worth holding onto. There is no need to get paranoid about its performance, because it will do well, and will most certainly outperform anything (including PM-V11) that is used bevel down when shooting end grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek