bugbear
Established Member
Corneel":2k9a4z9z said:
Agreed - historically it was a feature of the coarser, faster cutting, saws.
BugBear
Re toothing a vintage tenon saw
- Thread starter Bluekingfisher
- Start date
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Agreed - historically it was a feature of the coarser, faster cutting, saws.
BugBear
Argus
Established Member
Excellent posts, especially about progressive pitch as opposed to rake.
I've used the method proposed here and a practical drawback that I've found is the excessive wear on expensive and sometimes hard-to-find saw files. The punishment seems to happen on the corners where it is continually cutting into the gullet on a narrow section of unsupported teeth. I ended up with a lot of various files with good sides, but ragged gullet-forming teeth. In use they tend to bottom-out or, worse wander to one side or the other.
I was interested to see a method the Paul Sellers explains on one of his You-Tube films, where he makes a template of wood to guide a junior hacksaw blade to make a cut to define the depth of the gullet. Initially it is about re-sizing, but it's also good if you've re-jointed a plate back to basics. It's a bit of a fiddle to set up and terminal death-by-sawing for cheap junior blades, but it does work well and from my point of view allows me to use the sides of older, damaged files to get down to depth, then switch to a good file for the final run of strokes.
I think that this is the link if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0
No criticism, just another method that works and is economical on saw files, the replacement of which has generated some post on the forum.
I've used the method proposed here and a practical drawback that I've found is the excessive wear on expensive and sometimes hard-to-find saw files. The punishment seems to happen on the corners where it is continually cutting into the gullet on a narrow section of unsupported teeth. I ended up with a lot of various files with good sides, but ragged gullet-forming teeth. In use they tend to bottom-out or, worse wander to one side or the other.
I was interested to see a method the Paul Sellers explains on one of his You-Tube films, where he makes a template of wood to guide a junior hacksaw blade to make a cut to define the depth of the gullet. Initially it is about re-sizing, but it's also good if you've re-jointed a plate back to basics. It's a bit of a fiddle to set up and terminal death-by-sawing for cheap junior blades, but it does work well and from my point of view allows me to use the sides of older, damaged files to get down to depth, then switch to a good file for the final run of strokes.
I think that this is the link if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0
No criticism, just another method that works and is economical on saw files, the replacement of which has generated some post on the forum.
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Thanks again all for the advice fellas, like I said, just a hobbiest having fun and learning as I go.
If I was 'on the clock' then perhaps taking the little extra time to rake the first few teeth may be an issue. Thankfully I am not in such a position and I just consider the practice a habit now more than necessity.
Derek - I expect the rake of the first teeth are only beneficial should you start the cut with the toe on the far side of the work piece (Tote up). I suspect you start your cut on the near side ( The edge nearest you?) with the middle or heel of the plate (tote down?)
Again, whether one starts the cut tote up (front of plate) or tote down (rear of plate ) is down to personal preference I suspect
I am of tall standing and so the' tote up' start of cut allows me to stand taller and overlook the work piece. I would feel crouched with my wrist cocked uncomfortably if I were to start tote down.
My earliest tuition on staring a saw cut came about from early secondary school woodworking classes. We were told to start with the handle and wrist in the up position the draw the blade backward three times to form a slight trench before making the downward cut. I recall being told the reason for drawing the saw back was to prevent the saw from grabbing or snatching when starting the cut. (Which I find to be the case still, hence the progressive rake)
I had little interest in woodworking in my youth, although the saws were steel backed back saws with probably 10 - 12" plates. I can't be certain of the tpi although my scant recollection is they would be of finer teeth rather than course.
Of course this was a method taught to school boys to minimise harm or injury I suspect, however the tote up method has always stuck with me.
David
If I was 'on the clock' then perhaps taking the little extra time to rake the first few teeth may be an issue. Thankfully I am not in such a position and I just consider the practice a habit now more than necessity.
Derek - I expect the rake of the first teeth are only beneficial should you start the cut with the toe on the far side of the work piece (Tote up). I suspect you start your cut on the near side ( The edge nearest you?) with the middle or heel of the plate (tote down?)
Again, whether one starts the cut tote up (front of plate) or tote down (rear of plate ) is down to personal preference I suspect
I am of tall standing and so the' tote up' start of cut allows me to stand taller and overlook the work piece. I would feel crouched with my wrist cocked uncomfortably if I were to start tote down.
My earliest tuition on staring a saw cut came about from early secondary school woodworking classes. We were told to start with the handle and wrist in the up position the draw the blade backward three times to form a slight trench before making the downward cut. I recall being told the reason for drawing the saw back was to prevent the saw from grabbing or snatching when starting the cut. (Which I find to be the case still, hence the progressive rake)
I had little interest in woodworking in my youth, although the saws were steel backed back saws with probably 10 - 12" plates. I can't be certain of the tpi although my scant recollection is they would be of finer teeth rather than course.
Of course this was a method taught to school boys to minimise harm or injury I suspect, however the tote up method has always stuck with me.
David
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Argus - I did look at this method and actually formed the template Paul highlights in his video. I found the process fiddly and time consuming. I suspect reforming teeth of less the 12 tpi would be unpractical using this method, unless of course you have the patience of a...................patient person? and eyes like a hawk.
David
David
Argus
Established Member
David,
At my age I don't bother with anything finer than 12 or 14 points - I can't see it well enough. It ain't good for the eye-sight or blood-pressure!
As I said, Sellers' method it's a fiddle unless you have lots of saws to do and can spend some time on a durable, reusable template. But it is effective and can be very accurate in defining the spaces if you put some effort into the marking.
I was more than satisfied with the reduced wear on my files, which at 8 quid a pop, or thereabouts is a significant spend. But, perhaps, not for everyone.....
Thankfully re-cutting teeth is something that I do as a last resort (once in a blue moon) but I did it on a very good pair of I Sorby saws that i got on an auction last year.
Lovely plates and handles, no serious pitting, but the previous owners had used them as hacksaws. The tooth-lines were all over the place.
It should be possible to combine the wrap-around printed template method with the hacksaw, which I'll do next time as an experiment..... but I'm not looking forward to it!
Good luck with your saws; if nothing else, the scarcity, or non-existence, of good professional saw sharpening is turning us all into Saw-Doctors. ....."If this is Rock and Roll, I Want My Old Job Back"
At my age I don't bother with anything finer than 12 or 14 points - I can't see it well enough. It ain't good for the eye-sight or blood-pressure!
As I said, Sellers' method it's a fiddle unless you have lots of saws to do and can spend some time on a durable, reusable template. But it is effective and can be very accurate in defining the spaces if you put some effort into the marking.
I was more than satisfied with the reduced wear on my files, which at 8 quid a pop, or thereabouts is a significant spend. But, perhaps, not for everyone.....
Thankfully re-cutting teeth is something that I do as a last resort (once in a blue moon) but I did it on a very good pair of I Sorby saws that i got on an auction last year.
Lovely plates and handles, no serious pitting, but the previous owners had used them as hacksaws. The tooth-lines were all over the place.
It should be possible to combine the wrap-around printed template method with the hacksaw, which I'll do next time as an experiment..... but I'm not looking forward to it!
Good luck with your saws; if nothing else, the scarcity, or non-existence, of good professional saw sharpening is turning us all into Saw-Doctors. ....."If this is Rock and Roll, I Want My Old Job Back"
swagman
Established Member
David. You may find these tpi templates a little easier to use.
Print off the tpi your wanting; cut out the printed area; fold down the centre; then spray the underside with a craft adhesive before mounting on the top edge of the saw plate.
http://www.oocities.org/plybench/saw_teeth.pdf
Stewie;
Print off the tpi your wanting; cut out the printed area; fold down the centre; then spray the underside with a craft adhesive before mounting on the top edge of the saw plate.
http://www.oocities.org/plybench/saw_teeth.pdf
Stewie;
swagman
Established Member
AndyT":152saf8w said:
Thanks BB
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Argus - At 8 quid a pop the files seem a little onthe xpensive side.
Try Classic Hand Tools, thay are half the price you pay.
https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... Files.html
Or at Axminster
http://www.axminster.co.uk/vallorbe-swi ... es-ax22603
Thanks Stewie (and bugbear ) for the template guide. Just so I am clear on what my eyes are telling me, the file or blade is placed at the point where the two lateral points of the diamonds meet/touch?
David
Try Classic Hand Tools, thay are half the price you pay.
https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... Files.html
Or at Axminster
http://www.axminster.co.uk/vallorbe-swi ... es-ax22603
Thanks Stewie (and bugbear ) for the template guide. Just so I am clear on what my eyes are telling me, the file or blade is placed at the point where the two lateral points of the diamonds meet/touch?
David
bugbear
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":1x4zufq1 said:
My intention was (yes) that the pattern is folded on that line, and glued, just as you did before.
BugBear
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Thanks Paul for the confirmation.
David
David
Argus
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":3eflhsfq said:
Sorry David, I should have said Bahco files.
I used Grobet files for years, but they seem to have lost their way; the last lot I used were very poor. You judge every saw file on the quality of the narrow gullet-cutting part which takes most of the stress and is the first part to begin to fracture. Having tried most of them over the years, Bahco are the best in terms of longevity that I've found nowadays.
8 quid is about the average, give or take a bit for an un-handled Bahco file, from this well-respected supplier, though Tooled-Up are a little cheaper, but with a limited range of sizes.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/cgi-bin/s ... PR=-1&TB=A
All best
