Re: Tenons, how do you make yours?

[Cheshirechappie]

That video looks like a lot of hard work to me, takes an age - much quicker with a router/spindle moulder and a sliding table. If you want to use hand techniques and have all day to do it then fine - but the correct machine is undeniably quicker and easier.

For larger batches, that may be true. For just a few (four for a frame-and-panel door, for example) it's quicker by hand than setting up a machine, running test cuts, adjusting and generally fiddling around.

I suspect that some people assume that it's very hard and time-consuming to learn hand skills. It isn't. A couple of hours practice with a tenon saw and some scrap is all that most people will need to hone the skill. However, it is undeniably true that some people prefer to use machine set-ups for all sorts of reasons, and in the end, enjoying getting the work done (by whatever method) is what really counts - if you prefer machine methods, use 'em.

 

[Karl]

I cut mine on the spindle moulder with a simple jig and a pair of Whitehill tenoning heads. Works great.

Cheers

Karl

 

[No skills]

Of the huge amount of tenons I have cut by hand (err about 25, stop sniggering at the back) I have split them off with a chisel and pared to tidy (if needed) - other than when the grain isnt working in my favour and I have to use a (currently blunt) tenon saw I couldnt see the benifit in another technique. It is a very quick thing to do once you have the hang of it, if for some reason I had a large amount to do I would use some power tool/machines (good excuse for a bandsaw perhaps =P~ ).


JMO

 

[No skills]

I suspect that some people assume that it's very hard and time-consuming to learn hand skills. It isn't. A couple of hours practice with a tenon saw and some scrap is all that most people will need to hone the skill. However, it is undeniably true that some people prefer to use machine set-ups for all sorts of reasons, and in the end, enjoying getting the work done (by whatever method) is what really counts - if you prefer machine methods, use 'em.

I think your right and people get put off, if I can make a useable tenon by hand then most anybody can - after a few trys you start to get the idea.

 

[siggy_7]

However, it is undeniably true that some people prefer to use machine set-ups for all sorts of reasons, and in the end, enjoying getting the work done (by whatever method) is what really counts - if you prefer machine methods, use 'em.

I couldn't agree more! Personally I find hand techniques tedious, slow, difficult to learn and very hit and miss - one joint will fit great, the next will have some sort of defect that needs further work to rectify. Some people love learning hand techniques and the skill of the craft that goes with them, and that's great for them. I'm into woodworking because I like collecting power tools and machines - the bigger and noisier the better - and making jigs and machine adaptations gives my inner design engineer an outlet that I don't get at work. That I get to design and make things other than machines at the end of it is a nice bonus, and a good excuse to go and make more dust and noise.

If I were to want to cut a square tenon, the process including setup would be:

1. Chuck a 50mm tenon-bit into my table router (Triton TRA001), with an appropriate table insert
2. Set the bit height above the table to get the required tenon thickness, using the coarse and fine height winders on the router, and measure with a Trend height gauge to check it's spot-on. Lock router position.
3. Open the faces of the fence to clear the cutter
4. Set the fence position offset to the cutter to get the required tenon depth - I use an Incra positioner for this and double check with the trend height gauge held horizontally against the fence, which makes it really quick, but you could just use the height gauge with an ordinary fence which would still be quick and accurate
5. Lock the fence position, close the fence jaws around the cutter
6. Fit sliding table, set the fence to the 90 degree stop and adjust so it clears the cutter. Clamp on a sacrificial backer board if tear-out is an issue
7. Rout tenons and check the fit - if the set-up was done right, they will always fit first time

The set-up process detailed takes less than 15 mins, and also doesn't require me to mark out the tenon before cutting. If cutting a very deep tenon I'd move the fence back in stages, but otherwise its position is fixed throughout. If cutting a 4-side tenon then some height adjustment may be necessary between cutting the long and short sides of the tenon. Both these operations are 2-minute jobs. I would personally get maybe two tenons cut by hand with a tenon saw in that time if I was rushing (including the mark-up time), and no way would they be as accurate. The splitting method advocated by the OP looks longer.

 

[custard]

Personally I find hand techniques tedious, slow, difficult to learn and very hit and miss - one joint will fit great, the next will have some sort of defect that needs further work to rectify.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, it's the consistency of hand cut tenons that normally makes me turn to power solutions. Tenons don't come one by one, there'll be at least eight tenons in a project, often many more. And you only need one to out by more than a few thou and the strength of the entire piece has been severely compromised. Sure, it'll likely hold up for a year or two, but eventually that one poorly executed joint is going to turn that item of furniture into firewood.

And it's not even as if there's anything on show like with dovetails, a needle dovetail is impossible to make by machine and looks glorious, where as a domino is both reliable and invisible.

 

[hunggaur]

tenoning jig just like norms

 

[Jacob]

Personally I find hand techniques tedious, slow, difficult to learn and very hit and miss - one joint will fit great, the next will have some sort of defect that needs further work to rectify.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, it's the consistency of hand cut tenons that normally makes me turn to power solutions.

People do seem to have problems with power solutions too. They even talk about adjusting powered machine tenons with hand tools - they might as well do the whole job by hand if that's what they have to do.

....And it's not even as if there's anything on show like with dovetails, a needle dovetail is impossible to make by machine and looks glorious, where as a domino is both reliable and invisible.

What is a needle dovetail? Do you mean a single kerf dovetail - as per many million trad hand made drawers because it is the easiest?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mine's better than Nor-orms,
Na, na, na-nah, nah!

S

 

[powertools]

I agree with siggy.
Maybe we should have a power tool forum to run along side the hand tool forum

 

[Steve Maskery]

Aaarrgghh, no more forums!

There are too many already. I think General anfd Jigs&Tips can quite adequately accommodate anything we might want to discuss using electricity.
S

 

[powertools]

Aaarrgghh, no more forums!

There are too many already. I think General anfd Jigs&Tips can quite adequately accommodate anything we might want to discuss using electricity.
S

Point taken perhaps rename jigs and tips as power tools as most topics would be for them.

 

[ankledeep]

A woodrat easy to set up, accurate and repeatable and, if you think on it a while, you can usually manage to do a batch job if thats whats required....caveat.....once you get the hang of it....

 

[Bradshaw Joinery]

if i have time to leave the piece overnight i usually smear peanut butter on the sections i need removing upto the lines and then leave on the workshop floor, when i come back in the morning the tenon is made.... think it might beand agressive rat problem but i honestly couldnt say.


why is there some - attitudes in here?

 

[adzeman]

Yesterday I endeavoured to post a reply to Jacob, question, How do we form our tenons to no avail. I had one of those annoying moments when Microsoft decided to update my software informing me it was closing my computer and the re-starting so my post was not delivered.
Today rain stopped play again so I ended up where I like to be in the workshop, radio on and pottering about, thinking about the responses to the question.

Alongside this question was another post by marcros “I want to make a quick and simple bench/table for my new (to me) radial arm saw.” I use my RAS to cut my tenons when I have a number to cut usually over four. For four tenons or less I cut them by hand because it is so quick and easy, BUT, over 4 I still hand cut one tenon and use it as a pattern to set up my RAS into mass production mode.

My bench for my RAS was built from 100 x 50mm using mortice and tenons, which not having the RAS set up were cut by hand. No problem.

Pict’ of RAS bench

Steve Maskery states he designed his tenon making jig because he had not attained the skill his father had due to his father was making them on a daily basis for most of his life. I can only accept this in part. In my opinion, Steve Maskery makes and designs jigs because this is what he enjoys doing with the spin off of people who have a difficulty in using hand tools have another option. I have been making tenons since I was 12 years old. My father was not a woodworker, he was an industrial chemist. My interest in woodwork came from sitting on the village carpenters wall waiting for the bus to take me to school watching him make wheels, carts, coffins, windows, doors etc. Asking questions, helping out during holidays and then working as an apprentice for 5 years before going to college to qualify as a surveyor. Now retired I can still make a tenon quite quickly. Skill is achieved by first getting into a mind set which to me is borne out by the Japanese or say the Shakers. I do not suggest any meditation but I stick to the rules or procedures I was taught all those years ago and remember with each one you do they get better and better.

Here’s one I made after tea today it took less than an hour including taking the photo’s.

Pict’ of tenon.

Cutting the mortice took longer

Pict’ of tenon and mortice.

Nobody has mentioned forming the mortices?

Dominoes have not excited me. For the cost of a Domino machine I could have bought 2 second hand RAS machines they may be old but if DeWalt will last for more years.

 

[custard]

Here’s one I made after tea today it took less than an hour including taking the photo’s.

Cutting the mortice took longer

Nobody has mentioned forming the mortices?

Dominoes have not excited me. For the cost of a Domino machine I could have bought 2 second hand RAS machines they may be old but if DeWalt will last for more years.

Mike, so using the RAS method it takes about two hours to produce one M&T joint...in pine. That sounds like a pretty strong argument in favour of a Domino!

 

[Jacob]

Here’s one I made after tea today it took less than an hour including taking the photo’s.

Cutting the mortice took longer

Nobody has mentioned forming the mortices?

Dominoes have not excited me. For the cost of a Domino machine I could have bought 2 second hand RAS machines they may be old but if DeWalt will last for more years.

Mike, so using the RAS method it takes about two hours to produce one M&T joint...in pine. That sounds like a pretty strong argument in favour of a Domino!

Even stronger argument in favour of split and pare - say 3 minutes per tenon. OK perhaps 5.

 

[RogerBoyle]

Steve Maskery states he designed his tenon making jig because he had not attained the skill his father had due to his father was making them on a daily basis for most of his life. I can only accept this in part. In my opinion, Steve Maskery makes and designs jigs because this is what he enjoys doing with the spin off of people who have a difficulty in using hand tools have another option. I have been making tenons since I was 12 years old. My father was not a woodworker, he was an industrial chemist. My interest in woodwork came from sitting on the village carpenters wall waiting for the bus to take me to school watching him make wheels, carts, coffins, windows, doors etc. Asking questions, helping out during holidays and then working as an apprentice for 5 years before going to college to qualify as a surveyor. Now retired I can still make a tenon quite quickly. Skill is achieved by first getting into a mind set which to me is borne out by the Japanese or say the Shakers. I do not suggest any meditation but I stick to the rules or procedures I was taught all those years ago and remember with each one you do they get better and better.

Here’s one I made after tea today it took less than an hour including taking the photo’s.

Pict’ of tenon.

Cutting the mortice took longer

Pict’ of tenon and mortice.

Nobody has mentioned forming the mortices?

Dominoes have not excited me. For the cost of a Domino machine I could have bought 2 second hand RAS machines they may be old but if DeWalt will last for more years.

Sorry but are you really saying that it took you an hour to make the tenon in the Picture using your RAS ?????
Using my Sliding compound saw it would only take me 4 or 5 mins
Using my table saw and band saw around the same
By hand including marking about the same and that is taking my time LOL
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

For some folks they decide early on they do not have the aptidude to use hand tools and for some this is true but My honest opinion is the majority just cant be bothered or are to lazy to learn and instead turn to machines and jigs instead LOL
Every so often you will hear them chirp up on a post where the majority of the work has been done by hand and they seem amazed LOL

Roger

 

[Steve Maskery]

For some folks they decide early on they do not have the aptidude to use hand tools and for some this is true but My honest opinion is the majority just cant be bothered or are to lazy to learn and instead turn to machines and jigs instead

Ouch, that's a bit harsh, Roger!

There are lots of reasons to prefer machines and/or jigs, and lots of reasons to prefer hand techniques.

I found early on that my eyesight was a bit of a problem. When I was young, I had very poor eyesight and one eye was considerably different to the other. So sighting down each side of a saw simply resulted in a slanted cut. These days, if I'm wearing my contact lenses (and reading glasses, but that bit is just middle age) I can see very well. Without them I can't see the workpiece let alone a pencil line. So a jig is a way of overcoming that disadvantage.

Also, I don't cut tenons very month, let alone every day. Even less so now that I am between workshops. So when I do work on a project, I want to get on with it, not spend ages polishing up my hand skills, practising on 10 to make 4.

OTOH there are times when I actually prefer hand skills. I've developed an excellent way of cutting dovetails on the bandsaw, for example. But it is a batch method. I would use it for making a set of kitchen drawers, I wouldn't use it to make a single trinket box, for example. I'd get some scrap, make a couple of practice joints and then get on with it and I would enjoy the process as well as the peace and quiet.
S

 

[RogerP]

I would guess somewhere about 5-6 minutes for a straightforward mortice and tenon using my bench morticer and bandsaw. I'm an amateur.