Raised panel doors and yacht varnish tips for the weary.

[Ttrees]

Oh well have it your own way!
Show us the snaps when you've finished. Best of luck!
PS They aren't well made at all and are doomed to sag and catch on the floor. I wonder if you could buy little trunnions to bear the weight - fitted close to the opening?

Will do Jacob, very thoroughly I might add for this might have some use for someone else.

Regarding the construction, I haven't got the chance to see if these rails have wedged tenons which seems the norm on iroko doors.
Only finished the chores now, so have a little time to do a proper inspection.
Seemingly the tenons are bare from a peek of just one, but that doesn't mean that there might not be some filler concealed in the mortise.
I hope not, especially if these aren't through tenons. fingers crossed on that one.

Regarding sagging, that is surely the same with any door, and especially so with a
12 panel/wide door.
Indeed it might be a good idea to make "trunnions" if by that you mean a kinda
jockey wheel on a trailer.
I might do something like that, anything but a wedge under the door, as that is
evidently terrible for a door which might be getting water ingress from a sloping driveway.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Jacob]

Regarding sagging, that is surely the same with any door, and especially so with a
12 panel/wide door.

Only with badly designed and/or badly made doors.

Indeed it might be a good idea to make "trunnions" if by that you mean a kinda
jockey wheel on a trailer.
I might do something like that, anything but a wedge under the door, as that is
evidently terrible for a door which might be getting water ingress from a sloping driveway.

Cheers
Tom

Loads of them! jockey wheel for doors - Google Search

 

[Ttrees]

Sagging issues doesn't seem terrible to me, but in all fairness these have been propping each other up being jammed together
but only at the bottom, say for the first two or three feet.
(I haven't chalked them, nor the floor to see about that)

That lintel was set too low which screwed the whole job up.
The dragging has nothing to do with the door manufacturer IMO.

Won't be needing a jockey wheel as I've no need to be opening them after the job is done.
From just a glance, no rotting is evident on the half lap.
I'll be looking to see any roundover's evident from a belt sander, to see if there maybe a strip needed should there become a gap in-between...
if the joints actually become able to be brought home.

Thanks
Tom

 

[Doug71]

I would guess that the panels have expanded which has pushed the door apart? Sometimes on doors like this the top and bottom rails might be through tenons but the mid rails just stub tenons.

If they are Iroko they will be heavy, I was trying to see if the hinges looked strong enough, how big are the hinges, they look bigger than 4" butts?

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks Doug71 that's the first impression I had also,
whether they were glued in or not, or even if the panels were a small bit too large.
The top of the doors suggests that the panels maybe free to float about,
as less deterioration is evident on the upper panels.

I have documented in detail some more regarding tenons, warpage, and some cracks on the panels, but no time to upload.
I will be thoroughly investigating all things mentioned.
Thankfully the landlord dropped by and was tryin to stuff money in the letterbox.
Had a good chat about fillers and whatnot.
Good to know that they are pleased with the work, and nice to get the green light to
do some more drainage and try and make the shed a bit more hospitable regarding plywood for jigs and whatnot.
That will be for again, as I'm keen to crack on and get the job done nicely.

Have to go now.
Thanks to everyone who has provided some input.
Will keep ye posted.
Regards

Tom

 

[Seascaper]

Hello folks
Awaiting these doors to dry out for a bit in the next day or so...
They were very damp beforehand, and that was before doing some concrete.
Thinking I'd best post a thread to gain some insight regarding finishing the job off,
well at least for the meanwhile, might have to make some new iroko weatherboards at some stage
down the line.

Got a big tin of Sadolin yacht varnish and have some questions regarding the use of white spirit or paint thinners applied beforehand, whether that's a good idea as I haven't read any suggestions bar one mention of doing so.

And another one for fun regarding matching the coving/moulding and the easiest way to copy,
(for one without a contour gauge) although I may have a deck of cards somewhere, if that might work to copy onto a template to make the scraper.

No sandpaper for the job, so it will all have to be scraped down, and nearly forgot to mention I won't be staining before either, as I'm skint from buying that drainage channel.

Would love to have some buffing wheels for sharpening the scraper ala David W's methods,
a very good watch which I'll add below
I'll be doing it old skool, but thought I'd mention it as it looks the business.

Another thing I'm kinda concerned about is speed,
not for the outside, but for the sections which are covered by the frame.
(facing the road and tool transport cartelINC are of concern, as I don't have a shotgun)
Been tough to get this done, having the doors closed whilst any automobile passes, lol.

Any suggestions about anything appreciated.
Cheers folks

View attachment 141173
View attachment 141182

D_W's video on the subject

 

[Seascaper]

Lovely looking doors, well worth looking after. It looks from your photo that the doors have been stained, possibly with a stained varnish which is why you have very light areas where this product has come away from the wood. If the Sadolin yacht varnish is normal clear varnish you will either have to remove all the existing product or restain but you want to avoid ending up with a patchy finish. You may find it easy to scrape away all the existing product with a good sharp paint scraper, I can recommend the Skarsken type of scraper with interchangeable blades. If you get it back to bare wood, iroko is a very hard wood and so I would recommend you dilute your first coat by around 25% to get it to sink into the wood, you could even give it two coats as it will dry quickly with this dilution. You might have to remove the bottom weathersill, clean it up and possibly plane off the surface to get it back to new. It is important the the drip channel underneath this weather seal is cleaned out and still there, you might have to clean it up or run a router along it. The bottom board has cracked which will need filling otherwise your varnish will crack and start to lift on the first frost. I would use some clear epoxy resin and drizzle it into the crack and remove the excess from the surface before applying varnish. If you don’t remove the excess you will get marks showing when you varnish. Depending on the type of varnish you use drying times will vary, you mention yacht varnish, the drying times for these can vary so you will have to not shut the doors until dry otherwise they could stick and jam. Yacht varnish is a good choice as it have a UV filter to protect the wood and more flexible for those panelled doors. They will look wonderful when varnished and if you do it properly and maintain the finish never regret the hard work. You could use a coloured yacht enamel and get a great finish but everything is about the preparation and there is no way to avoid it. Enjoy the work and you will have some lovely doors,
Regards

 

[Ttrees]

Too hot to do this job ATM, the glue would dry too quickly.
Took some photos yesterday, seems these gaps were filled before, but hopefully can be raked out, as there is only a hint of remnants of filler left behind.
Couldn't open the doors up as too dangerous, could barely take a photo,
so I'm still waiting until the right time to see the construction regarding through tenons or blind mortises.

Might try giving a few taps after cleaning out, to see if any filler might migrate outta the mortises.

The stuff doesn't appear to have that great of a bond

Going to use my metal detector to check for some invisable pins, as well as removing a screw each side of the weatherboards.

The panel with the largest crack

Pretty warped, this may take some time to straighten out, like the top rails are.
I reckon a little bit of both installation and production is going on here.
This might be of interest to folks making doors, in choosing the slightly lesser material for somewhere, seems like the thing to do is use the best for the top rails
so it sits into the frame better.

Not expecting miracles, but maybe I have half a chance
just as long as I can get those tenons home and dry
Still waiting for the day, but looks like its gonna be a long night.

Will likely wait until the rains before I can test the effectiveness of the weather boards
Can make up iroko ones easy, but not before the workshop is back to normal.
Big tin of the stuff so, can pre apply it before assembly.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Only getting back at this now, should'a updated this last week re-advice on
the original topic.
Just to bring ye up to speed...
Unsuccessfully attempted to get those rails to straighten out a bit

Checked for some metal fixings, no pins found anywhere.

Some tools for the job

Thinking something may have been stopping these tenons from sliding in further,
so made sure this wasn't the case.
That troublesome rail was tight against the stile at the back in places

I was expecting this gap to become smaller after doing so, didn't happen.
This wee chisel was able to get to the joint and remove the old putty.
Still hoping there was some bit of snot stopping the joint from coming together,
no luck there.

One or two wedges didn't want to be pried out, so required a long chisel

Continued...

 

[Ttrees]

Tried a few ways to wrangle those rails into the stiles,
must buy some proper ratchet straps for again.
Could'a welded up a few clamps I've saved for making longer,
but the workshop is far too upside down for any welding.
Left the wedges out of that middle "lock rail" for a week and no change
(if that's an apt term for that rail on these 12 panel doors...)

Still a big gap on that troublesome lock rail.
The other ones closed up a bit better.

Stopped the doors from sticking, and a bit more of a gap evident here.
Seems if I do the other door, there will be a large gap inbetween,
and I don't want to remove them for planing and laminating a strip.
I may make something for again to sort this, should a bit of rain blow in.
That's a job for another day.

So the plan is I'll be stripping off down to bare timber on most of it, the inside seems
in good nick
Staining these with the guts of half a tin of Sandolin what's left.
Thin it down with either white spirit or paint thinners and test on that inside rail first.
and then fill it with either brown silicone or putty.
and then use the yacht varnish on top, same Sandolin brand, will likely be compatible.

Is there a preference to use either or something else for this application.
I'm thinking the silicone might have some flex compared to putty,
but would rather see what you folks suggest for multiple reasons.

Saying this before I go staining, should I be better off using putty,
if it's the case that it should be used before staining.

I guess there may be a choice regarding the stuff, as I've came across many different types on doors and windows before.
Keen to see what ye think.

Ps @Phil Pascoe Pascoe seems La Scalla's place could do with a lick'o'paint also!

Thanks
Tom

 

[rogxwhit]

Silicone has its uses in building but I wouldn't use it on doors. Yes you need something that remains a bit flexible though.

 

[Jacob]

These are an ugly and badly made pair of junk-joinery doors made by incompetents.
You can't remedy the defects - just slap paint on or make some new doors.
You can't make silk purses with sow's ears, or as they say in joinery milieux: you can't polish a terd. It stays a terd, even with gallons of Sadolin and yacht varnish - in fact could end up looking even more like them, just shinier and more obvious!
PS I've been away for a week- you could have finished this before I even went!
PPS some 1 3/4" no12 screws through the tenons would hold them a bit better. Or a pattern of 1 3/4" lost head flooring brads. Recommended gloss paint colour: terd brown to match existing.

 

[Ttrees]

Aah cheers was hoping yourself might reply.
Thought you might have been busy moving as i seen this van few days ago

You mentioned putty before, and wondering if there might be much difference between them, or some more suited to being better for gap filling.
I presume this doesn't need any sort of sealer first, and just slapped on and worked well into the gaps.
I'll be staining these again, presumably afterwards and using that yacht varnish on top.

Just messing around with some blutack this evening, thinking of the best way to copy the profile, seems a bit difficult to transfer well, but guessing there's an easy way to do it whilst keeping the blu tack blue for use again?
Seems this might be the only thing to be achieved from doing this job.


Cheers

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Aah cheers was hoping yourself might reply.
Thought you might have been busy moving as i seen this van few days ago
View attachment 141906

No if it was me I'd be slipping away incognito, covering my tracks!

You mentioned putty before, and wondering if there might be much difference between them, or some more suited to being better for gap filling.
I presume this doesn't need any sort of sealer first, and just slapped on and worked well into the gaps.
I'll be staining these again, presumably afterwards and using that yacht varnish on top.

Putty best with paint on top

Just messing around with some blutack this evening, thinking of the best way to copy the profile, seems a bit difficult to transfer well, but guessing there's an easy way to do it whilst keeping the blu tack blue for use again?
Seems this might be the only thing to be achieved from doing this job.

Just paint over the defects - it's very traditional.

 

[Jacob]

No if it was me I'd be slipping away incognito, covering my tracks!

Putty best with paint on top

Just paint over the defects - it's very traditional.

PS Claudia Kinmonth MRIA

 

[Ttrees]

These are an ugly and badly made pair of junk-joinery doors made by incompetents.
You can't remedy the defects - just slap paint on or make some new doors.
You can't make silk purses with sow's ears, or as they say in joinery milieux: you can't polish a terd. It stays a terd, even with gallons of Sadolin and yacht varnish - in fact could end up looking even more like them, just shinier and more obvious!
PS I've been away for a week- you could have finished this before I even went!
PPS some 1 3/4" no12 screws through the tenons would hold them a bit better. Or a pattern of 1 3/4" lost head flooring brads. Recommended gloss paint colour: terd brown to match existing.

Regardless of the quality of these doors, I see these things as learning opportunities.
I guess you mentioned Claudia's site as a nod if you will to the traditional thing done,
i.e to use putty instead of brown silicone?
I'm not convinced it would have the same bond as putty for this application,
as opposed to a window for example?
Not opposed to either, should other things like frost or something else be
issue?

Still not rushing, as now I can relax and do the interesting part,
I know a lick of paper would do the trick as I'm staining, but might as well have a quick go at making shaped scrapers, a method which may well become handy down the road.
Nothing needs be perfect, so a good time to learn something.


Had a go at tracing the molding with a pencil today, didn't work, and was thinking a lead might have to work, bit of a faff that'd be for a one off thing.
Nipped into the house and asked the missus if she had some blu tac, and acquired most of a slab.

The blu-tac is hungry for old varnish, and pressing the shape distorts the flatness.
So it likely takes at least two attempts to end up with something flat and stout enough not to deform whilst peeling off.

Tried to trace around the blue tack with a sharp pencil, but that didn't work.

I tried transferring some permanent marker to the blu tack and it was too smudgy
even leaving the perimeter proud, it was smudgy like below.

But painting the edge instead gives a seemingly sound impression!
Now to figure out the best way to get it cut marked and onto the sawplate.

 

[TomGW]

Wasn’t the whole purpose of this exercise to spruce the place up a bit in support of a ‘Tidy Towns’ competition? While the results are to be published in November the actual assessment takes place in June & July, so you’ve certainly missed boat for 2022.

 

[whereistheceilidh]

You might want to try a profile guage....a lot of pins/fine bits of metal/plastic in a frame that can copy molding shapes. Some are quite cheap & should work a whole heap better than blutack.
Thanks for the interesting link Jacob.

 

[Ttrees]

Wasn’t the whole purpose of this exercise to spruce the place up a bit in support of a ‘Tidy Towns’ competition? While the results are to be published in November the actual assessment takes place in June & July, so you’ve certainly missed boat for 2022.

You might want to try a profile guage....a lot of pins/fine bits of metal/plastic in a frame that can copy molding shapes. Some are quite cheap & should work a whole heap better than blutack.
Thanks for the interesting link Jacob

@TomGW
I was hoping to get some more opinions on putty vs brown silicone before I go shopping.
One could argue that the silicone is a traditional thing for iroko doors as it's the done thing for the panels.
Tidy towns is 24/7 thing round here.
No hotels golf courses or anything else to bribe the judges, only pleasing the locals kinda thing.
@whereistheceilidh
I haven't found a decent profile gauge locally,
Is this what folks use or used to use for spindle molders?

The blu tac seems like it will work none the less, when paint on edge is transferred,
rather than painting the face of the stuff...
and that's not even after a fresh press, so perhaps I should try and take a more
fancy photo showing crisper edges and so on.

It's just something I haven't seen, though I guess many folks here have done similar sorta stuff before, be it restoration work on furniture or custom profiles on a larger scale.
Was thinking I might get a few tips as this seems fairly easy to me.

I do know there's stuff called friendly plastic, a reusable melt and shape material
for all sorts of uses, often for custom cauls on instruments.

Perhaps the old books mention plaster instead I guess?

Tom

 

[Jacob]

.....
I was hoping to get some more opinions on putty vs brown silicone before I go shopping.
One could argue that the silicone is a traditional thing for iroko doors as it's the done thing for the panels.
...

Neither silicone or iroko are remotely traditional for doors.