Question about router cutters for AQ21

[mrodent]

@mrodent and @HOJ thanks so much for the photos and measurements, super useful. Would you be willing to share the approximate price per m2 you paid, and wait time for delivery,

Thanks

Craig

I was in fact pleasantly surprised at the price. But partly that's because I was comparing with other options to upgrade my house's heat and acoustic insulation. My semi has no fewer than 53 single-glazed panes (and a further large french window arrangement) and they all have to be upgraded. To pay people to rip out all the (perfectly sound) timber and replace with PVC (and actually I really don't like plastic!) would have cost literally 10s of 000s.

So my first order consisted of 10 x 445 mm (w) x 280 mm (h) + 10 x 445 mm (w) x 842 mm (h). With delivery (£140) and VAT this came to £2450. Delivery struck me as a bit steep, but in fact these panes were packed in a specially constructed wooden jig. I assume it was packaged in Japan. Total of 6.80 m2 of glass. But the upper panes were small enough to be subject to a minimum price (0.3 m2 min.).

The lead time is 10 weeks: when the crate arrived it was covered with Japanese writing. LandVac is a Japanese company which I think gets its stuff made in China.

If interested despite this, get in touch with the main agent in the UK, Tony Dee at Grosvenor Restoration: Contact | Grosvenor Restoration

 

[mrodent]

Its just the first time I have ever actually seen any so was a bit surprised, it clearly has very impressive qualities for sound and thermal.
In the advertising images they obviously omit the plug from all images.
I do a lot of upgraded sliding sashes with heritage units and it would be good to offer the vacuum stuff but with the large seal plug and sightline its not likely to be possible. Its not going to be any good in a Georgian style 8 over 8 with 20mm bars.
I notice on your linked info page the AGC fineo doesn`t have plugs so that might be better for my applications.
Its an interesting product and given its performance I wonder if it could be used in large structural glass applications, freeing up some design possibilities constrained by building regs and the overall thermal envelopes u value.
Maybe new build houses can go back to having decent sized windows instead of feeling like caves



Ollie

Yes, I understand the logic of that. And yes, I reach the same conclusion as you about the possible applications. It's exciting stuff, but not practical for everything.

I calculated my first batch of panes not making allowance for the extra large 25 mm margin which will have to be concealed on one end, so some evidence of plugginess will be visible. I don't care too much but will learn from this, and hope others can.

But as I said in my post to Fitzroy, I think using this in sashes will be tricky.

 

[Fitzroy]

Hmm the bay window in my front room has 8 panes at a total area of 4.6m2, that’s £1600 of glazing in those windows alone, gosh. Perhaps back to the drawing board, for more than just how to manage the plugs.

 

[mrodent]

Hmm the bay window in my front room has 8 panes at a total area of 4.6m2, that’s £1600 of glazing in those windows alone, gosh. Perhaps back to the drawing board, for more than just how to manage the plugs.

I have bays, one upstairs and one downstairs: each has 12 panes. So my first order covers the upstairs bay (as well as a back room). Yes, it works out at £280 per m2 + delivery + VAT. But what's your situation? Single glazing? Or have you already got double glazing? Because if you want to upgrade from single glazing (this is my situation) you are talking about major investment whichever option you choose.

If not, what's your motivation for renovating your windows?

The other point is that this is a solution for someone with sufficient will, skills and tightfistedness to do it themselves. I shudder to think how much I'd have to pay a London window company to deepen and widen the rabbets in my frames, and install weatherstrip, and do all the sanding, priming, painting, adjusting, etc. etc. . It ain't for the faint-hearted. Achieving a decent seal, particularly acoustically, is something I'm very sceptical about getting ANYONE to perform properly. Which may be unfair to some professionals in London. Sadly, like it or not, repeated experience has shown that, in London at least, there are legions upon legions of useless, blagging morons out there: most can be identified by having a badge like "Checkatrade".

 

[Fitzroy]

I have bays, one upstairs and one downstairs: each has 12 panes. So my first order covers the upstairs bay (as well as a back room). Yes, it works out at £280 per m2 + delivery + VAT. But what's your situation? Single glazing? Or have you already got double glazing? Because if you want to upgrade from single glazing (this is my situation) you are talking about major investment whichever option you choose.

If not, what's your motivation for renovating your windows?

The other point is that this is a solution for someone with sufficient will, skills and tightfistedness to do it themselves. I shudder to think how much I'd have to pay a London window company to deepen and widen the rabbets in my frames, and install weatherstrip, and do all the sanding, priming, painting, adjusting, etc. etc. . It ain't for the faint-hearted. Achieving a decent seal, particularly acoustically, is something I'm very sceptical about getting ANYONE to perform properly. Which may be unfair to some professionals in London. Sadly, like it or not, repeated experience has shown that, in London at least, there are legions upon legions of useless, blagging morons out there: most can be identified by having a badge like "Checkatrade".

We are way off original topic but such an entertaining post needs a reply! The house has original single glazed sash windows with secondary glazing. We were quoted £17,000 last year to have all the windows (2 big bays and 5 other large box sashes) retrofitted with double glazing and seals.

I did not like the sealing system the individual was proposing, brush seals, as we had them on our London house and they had been easily damaged during painting.

I built a whole new double glazed sash for one of the windows as an experiment, with aq21 as the seal system and it’s great. However, the heritage unit I used, 12mm 4-4-4 does not have the thermal performance I really want, it still mists up during cooking in the kitchen. Hence I want to go to a 20mm gas filled glazing unit. There is not space in the original sashes to fit such. I can remake all new sashes but I’d much prefer to retain the originals. That’s how I ended up at vacuum glazing.

I definitely have both sufficient skills and tight-fistedness to push me into the job myself Finding a person that I trust from the outset to do a job I’m happy with is an eternal struggle. Having skills yourself is at times a curse, when you pay for something and then think how much better you could have done yourself.

But I’ve been talking about this for 5 years, made the new sash a couple of year back, and here I am asking more questions. I’ll end up moving house before getting round to it

 

[mrodent]

@Fitzroy

Sounds familiar. As I've said above, I think unfortunately that LandVac and sashes are not ideally compatible (because of the edges, plugs, etc.). Fineo might be more suitable by the sound of it. I have no idea of their pricing.

I'm no expert on DGU, and this may well have become an urban (and/or rural) myth by now, but my impression is that all the inert gases always end up by leaking. This is why I can excuse the unsightly edging of my vacuum panes: perhaps this is cultural stereotyping, but I am assuming that the Japanese manufacturer would only have gone to such lengths if it were absolutely necessary to produce something which is going to hold the vacuum for many years. Obviously a big technical challenge.

At the moment I'm optimistic that I'll never see condensation on the indoor side of these panes even in the depths of "winter" (I believe you have the real thing in Aberdeen still but in London I think the term now sadly belongs in quotes ).