Quangsheng No.62 low angle vs No.5 vs No.5 1/2?

[D_W]

Where do you find them?

Jacob - the poster of this thread asked that question - a plane that will be used on all phases of stock preparation. You have to assume that when they mention they have a #4, the plane that they get will be assigned to things not smoothing - or at least it should be. That was copied words, not mine.

As for the people working by hand, I know only of one, except for a group of folks at Williamsburg who is censored in the tools that they're allowed to use. If dimensioning by hand is going to be the thing to do for someone, Nicholson is a better starting source than anything else.

As for the comment about not doing a lot of planing - sure. I made the comment about having a whole bunch of planes and making them dull all at once because it's detached from what you actually do if you're doing a lot of planing. It may not be detached from what you'd do if you're using machines and smoothing a bunch of stuff or working at a site. I've seen accounts of site workers not wanting to sharpen tools on the job. I've never encountered anyone (add a second - Brian Holcombe worked by hand for a while until he couldn't handle it because his order list got too large - a good thing to have) who advocated that in the context of dimensioning or doing a lot of work by hand. It's false efficiency.

 

[D_W]

At any rate, the purpose of this thread for the OP - to find the next plane that would be a good fit - well taken care of. He got the right one and avoided the wrong one based on what he asked about.

 

[Jacob]

...... It's false efficiency.

er, what is and why?

 

[Jameshow]

very strange.

I do that tbh.

I use a number 5 scrubbing and then a 5 1/2 or 6 to flatten, then a no 4 to finish, I find a n6 is just too big for a fine finish. Perhaps it needs a finer sharpen!

 

[raffo]

I do that tbh.

I use a number 5 scrubbing and then a 5 1/2 or 6 to flatten, then a no 4 to finish, I find a n6 is just too big for a fine finish. Perhaps it needs a finer sharpen!

I don't know if that is what Jacob meant, but it sounded like he has multiples of the same plane and goes through them until they are dull. It is not as efficient as just resharpening as needed and not have to carry as many planes.

 

[Jacob]

I don't know if that is what Jacob meant, but it sounded like he has multiples of the same plane and goes through them until they are dull. It is not as efficient as just resharpening as needed and not have to carry as many planes.

Simple really. I've got 7, 6, 5 1/2, 5, 4 1/2, and various others (non of which I have to carry). If I'm doing a lot of planing I might just work my way through the the top 5 or so instead of stopping to sharpen.
Not inefficient at all. Come to think that's when I'm most likely to use the 6 which otherwise I tend not to pick up. If there's a sharp plane lying there why not just go for it!
A bit of overthinking going on here?
Basically you can do all basic stuff with just a 5 1/2.

 

[Jacob]

Trouble with these threads is what BucksDad earlier called the poor signal <> noise ratio, not to mention the "bloviation". To which I'd add "over-thinking" alternating with "under-thinking" and loads of pure BS.
Ending up being completely useless and uninformative.
Anyway the answer is 5 1/2! Which I said right at the beginning!

 

[G S Haydon]

It was hardly pushy nonsense - just my experience of being in this forum as someone looking to get into primarily handtool woodworking. My post history doesn't show much because I haven't started yet because I'm still building my workshop which is taking a while for various reasons, however I am now putting on the cladding so I might get done by Christmas.

I was just offering my perspective as someone new and trying to learn and trying to make this forum a better place -- I'm afraid that lots of lengthy posts telling people that LA planes are not the answer combined with jibes of every plane manufacturer & random anecdotes about bayling hay and saw technique creates a very low signal <> noise ratio.

Having read your contributions I can see that you have plenty of expertise with handtools, planes, chisels, making them, discussing the various types of steel etc. etc. etc. but I was just trying to point out that as a beginner, I can't see the wood from the trees with your contributions and a concise presentation of your points in a YT video would be great.
Forums are not lecture theatres and are designed to provide a medium of discussion and garner various opinions. Ignoring people doesn't work because it then makes a thread disjointed when those on your ignore list contribute.

I was just trying to provide a comment to help communicate your expertise and knowledge in a way which is more accessible and helps more people rather than your typical bloviating posts which I feel don't serve many.

Typical Sharpening of a Rip Saw

Here are a few of David's videos. I turn to him for advice on hand tools. Even after being a professional Joiner for over 25 years I find David's understanding of the nuances of hand tools well beyond mind.

That doesn't mean you have to copy and paste his methods, I don't. But he has significantly influenced my method.

 

[D_W]

I do that tbh.

I use a number 5 scrubbing and then a 5 1/2 or 6 to flatten, then a no 4 to finish, I find a n6 is just too big for a fine finish. Perhaps it needs a finer sharpen!

That part's fine - we all do that, working through a few boards in a sequence - it's certainly better than jack planing 15 boards, then try planing, etc.

What strikes me as odd is more the idea that if you were using a 6, you'd grab another plane to do the same thing as the 6 instead of sharpening the 6, or grab another jointer to take over for a jointer that just needs a minute of sharpening (2 minutes total if you count taking the plane apart, and by the time that's the case, it's nice to have the 2 minutes built in so that the planing can be continuous mixed in with the sawing).

That rotation of work is part of what makes continuous dimensioning tolerable and pleasant for a few hours. But allowing a big pile of planes to grow with dull irons becomes an obstacle.

 

[BucksDad]

Thanks @G S Haydon. I thought I remember David had some videos up but couldn’t find it.

I shall watch these and learn!

 

[D_W]

Simple really. I've got 7, 6, 5 1/2, 5, 4 1/2, and various others (non of which I have to carry). If I'm doing a lot of planing I might just work my way through the the top 5 or so instead of stopping to sharpen.
Not inefficient at all. Come to think that's when I'm most likely to use the 6 which otherwise I tend not to pick up. If there's a sharp plane lying there why not just go for it!
A bit of overthinking going on here?
Basically you can do all basic stuff with just a 5 1/2.

I'm not sure how many people believe you've done much dimensioning work by hand, especially as a volume vs. much of anything else.

I don't get the sense that anyone here does much of it, aside perhaps from adam working from riven. And I'm just guessing he does that.

I can tell by the way that Warren Mickley talks that he does it, the talk about sharpening, economy of effort with various things and his comments about doubting that rip sawing was left to the least skilled in the shop, or anything of the like.

I landed just by continuing to do work instead of pushing wood through machines and then talking about using planes a lot or for crude work....exactly at what Nicholson describes. I think almost everyone would - it's just a natural landing point, and I've seen the only two people I know who actually did much work by hand end up at the same place. Brian Holcombe and Warren. I don't round over cap irons corners, and I walked the boards a little more than i needed to early on with the jack plane. Warren pointed out that Nicholson said to match the cap to the iron (I still don't think that serves a point, and I don't think Nicholson had a better grasp on planes than I do, because my planes don't have any of the shortcomings that he asserts are there - like leaving the cut shy of the corners. I solved that by my second double iron plane and I think all of the English planemakers did later).

The comment about working at arms length down a longer board and then moving periodically and not being to quick to want to work the full length of the board until the end turns out to be more productive.

If you were working by hand, you would be talking about stuff like this. Nobody or near nobody is doing it, but everyone seems to want to assert what can or can't be done. Even DC tried to stick me with a couple of things that couldn't be done while he was still around (not being able to plane a length straight or hollow without stop shavings, etc) and I know he had no ill intentions - he was as honest as anyone I've met.

Most people aren't doing it because they wouldn't like it. Some aren't doing it because they think they're above it (few are), and I think there is a small share of people who would like to do it if they could get decent advice. Maybe I'm wrong.

Calling things like plane setup and cap iron discussions overthinking gives me plenty of information to know what I need to know.

 

[Jacob]

....... ......

That doesn't mean you have to copy and paste his methods, I don't. But he has significantly influenced my method.

How has he influenced your method? What do you do differently?

 

[Jacob]

.....

What strikes me as odd is more the idea that if you were using a 6, you'd grab another plane to do the same thing as the 6 instead of sharpening the 6, or grab another jointer to take over for a jointer that just needs a minute of sharpening (2 minutes total if you count taking the plane apart, and by the time that's the case, ......

on and on and on! Back on ignore!

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks @G S Haydon. I thought I remember David had some videos up but couldn’t find it.

I shall watch these and learn!

I know David's posts can be hard to digest, but he's not selling anything which is very refreshing.

An interesting one I picked up was not to worry about stop shavings on edges, just learn to use the plane!

As much as these threads get a bit heated it's a good thing. Unless there is some lively debate allowed, forums die off.

 

[D_W]

Thanks @G S Haydon. I thought I remember David had some videos up but couldn’t find it.

I shall watch these and learn!

they never were made well, and Graham is right - it's not that there's something that I'm doing that should be copied end to end. It's some of the ideas, like being able to feel square, or at least very close. Being able to feel when the plane is telling you that you've got no high spots, or telling you when the clearance is not gone in a plane iron but you should sharpen, anyway.

There's a side benefit to it - you will automatically start gaining accuracy just in the course of work if you can get the limitations out of the way (like not using bevel up planes for any of this, too fine of saws, single iron planes in general where double iron can be used, and heavy iron planes where wooden is better). That is, you do all kinds of unexpected and pleasant neural development just in the course of work and fine sawing is really easy without ever practicing it.

Plus, you will feel afterward like you took a nice brisk walk, but you'll have physical satisfaction in the upper body and lower at the same time. Not soreness, not stooping, but the "I did something" kind of feel. I'll post some pictures that I took last week, they're not that interesting, but they sort of illustrate some of this in context even on a junky project (a loft bed that will be painted per son's request, so it's just junky construction wood, cheap as possible).

 

[G S Haydon]

How has he influenced your method? What do you do differently?

Hi Jacob! Stopped "stop shavings". Learned to get the cap iron set right. Avoid "traversing" the grain.

Reinforced others such as the value of a Stanley #4 etc.

 

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob! Stopped "stop shavings". Learned to get the cap iron set right. Avoid "traversing" the grain.

Reinforced others such as the value of a Stanley #4 etc.

OK. Why were you doing stopped shavings in the first place? What is "traversing the
grain?
PS OK I got it - it's planing across rather than along. Obvious really! It's a good way to remove material fast with a well cambered blade. Very useful and not anything to avoid, but can be over done and not always necessary. Really handy with badly twisted boards, taking off the high points. Fastest with a scrub at about 45º though actual scrub planes are a little over sold.
When you've taken off enough and near the line you go along the grain with a less cambered blade.
Those vids are just too long and too rambling - rather like some posts!

 

[D_W]

I know David's posts can be hard to digest, but he's not selling anything which is very refreshing.

An interesting one I picked up was not to worry about stop shavings on edges, just learn to use the plane!

As much as these threads get a bit heated it's a good thing. Unless there is some lively debate allowed, forums die off.

I think, unfortunately, that we're losing a lot of steam in hand tool work in general, but I also think the reason that there was a bunch of steam wasn't for the reasons that I'd hoped. I hoped we'd kind of be heading toward the "people will walk away from what they learn and own it and then move up the ranks as a maker" instead of just buying a bunch of flatwork machines, maybe move toward stuff like this and document what they're doing or share it.

https://www.andersenandstauffer.com/highchests.php
If you work by hand, no naturally start to veer away from just making more flat stuff to thinking about design and making the projects count. I'm sidetracked in guitars and tools - there's reality, too. I would love to make furniture like this, wouldn't care if it took 15 years to get to be able to do it, and complementary toolmaking, but it's one or the other pair and I've got the bug for making the tools and the guitars.

What I think was really fueling the hand tool craze was just a few people doing much with them, some folks (like Don McConnell) who really know their stuff and sharing when people had questions, and a whole lot more buying for escapism with the desire to imagine woodworking, but not admit it.

There has always been a strong resistance to actually raising the level of work beyond talking about joinery and expensive stationary machines. The same thing is going on in the world of knives and in the world of guitars. There is a lot of superb work in instrument making because there's a good market for it, but there's a whole lot of it done in a way that avoids hand tools and far more folks getting their feet wet and then running fast away from the challenging stuff. I found out pretty quickly on the knife forums that nobody wanted to talk about how you could heat treat in the open atmosphere and try to match stuff from the 1800s. That will get you banned quickly.

I don't for a second think there's any extra virtue to working by hand if people don't want to do it, or that doing it will automatically make someone a better worker - but I think if folks want to do it, they will start knocking down the dominos toward fine work faster and the little nits of hand work and getting a feel come a lot faster.

No real comments about what's profitable or what's not. I could make tools profitably, but I don't think if that was the focus, I would be able to make them the way I like to.

 

[G S Haydon]

OK. Why were you doing stopped shavings in the first place? What is "traversing the
grain?

Edge jointing by hand described by modern proponents if a steady sequence of stop and then through shavings. I adopted it and then learned I didn't need to do it.

Traversing is a hipster name given to working across the grain as a first step when using a jack plane. It was being put forward as the way to work a sawn board. Working with the grain is more effective most of the time.

David isn't a genius, but thankfully he's not a lifestyle Guru either.

Hey, I like your contrary take on stuff too. You did a sterling job on that chapel conversation. Hope you're enjoying your new home and the fruits of your labour.

 

[D_W]

OK. Why were you doing stopped shavings in the first place? What is "traversing the
grain?
PS OK I got it - it's planing across rather than along. Obvious really! It's a good way to remove material fast with a well cambered blade. Very useful and not anything to avoid, but can be over done and not always necessary. Really handy with badly twisted boards, taking off the high points. Fastest with a scrub at about 45º though actual scrub planes are a little over sold.
When you've taken off enough and near the line you go along the grain with a less cambered blade.
Those vids are just too long and too rambling - rather like some posts!

traversing grain is slower to get to the end point at the risk of ruining work, but it doesn't matter if you're doing relatively crude work. It's uncommon to be planing something that is wide enough that it makes economic sense, but it's very popular and the word "scrub" is often used now.

One of the things that made me reference nicholson was when I mentioned planing through the length and someone said "that's what nicholson says to do".

Dimensioning isn't sloppy scrubbing, but it isn't any slower than sloppy scrubbing and cutting across the grain. it's the same or better volume of work with the same effort and far neater and without risk.

Just grabbing random planes until you run out of sharp ones is also weird, and i doubt it was ever practiced in 1800. But the bar is low now.

My interest isn't period anything - despite being accused of that. It's literally what makes sense to be able to work by hand or mostly by hand. It isn't "scrubbing" or constantly checking joints or stop shavings or leaving gaps at the ends of the board or any of that. It's something much more pleasant. The only reason 1800 comes up is because the art of doing work from end to end, which improves the skills throughout, was economically beaten. So, what do you do when you want to find out if you're on track? You search the last time that the methods were mature and had economic meaning or significance.