Quality Mid Range Hand Planes ?
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Rob Lee
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Hi -
While the planes you're discussing bear a striking resemblance to LN - I do have a dog in this fight...
I'm pretty sure that these are made by a Taiwanese firm, whose engineers have been trained by an American mail-order firm on how to reproduce tools made by others. You will note, that the edge trimming block plane is a direct copy of ours, and not LN's. They have, and continue, to copy tools indiscriminately - patented, or not. The products, by and large, are all made in China.
I can understand the attraction of the low price. I cannot understand rewarding the practise. I rarely have anything negative to say about anyone in this industry - but these people are just scum.
At some point - we, as consumers, have to understand that supporting this kind of activity puts your friends and neighbors out of work. I can point to dozens of firms in the UK whose products have been widely reproduced in Asia - and that's cost jobs.
Copying isn't competition - it's basically theft. That it's not strictly illegal, does not make it moral.
Sincerely -
Rob Lee
While the planes you're discussing bear a striking resemblance to LN - I do have a dog in this fight...
I'm pretty sure that these are made by a Taiwanese firm, whose engineers have been trained by an American mail-order firm on how to reproduce tools made by others. You will note, that the edge trimming block plane is a direct copy of ours, and not LN's. They have, and continue, to copy tools indiscriminately - patented, or not. The products, by and large, are all made in China.
I can understand the attraction of the low price. I cannot understand rewarding the practise. I rarely have anything negative to say about anyone in this industry - but these people are just scum.
At some point - we, as consumers, have to understand that supporting this kind of activity puts your friends and neighbors out of work. I can point to dozens of firms in the UK whose products have been widely reproduced in Asia - and that's cost jobs.
Copying isn't competition - it's basically theft. That it's not strictly illegal, does not make it moral.
Sincerely -
Rob Lee
ByronBlack
Established Member
Rob, since when has there been morals in business? Look at the fashion industy, the far-easten factories have copies of catwalk products within days of being shown, and there is a large network of shops that will happily sell these copies, and even magazines that will highlight them. And yet, the big fashion houses still seem to do ok - it might be interesting to find out why that is.
Are your planes designs protected? If so, why can't you sue them and get a stop to the cheap knock-offs from being produced?
Are your planes designs protected? If so, why can't you sue them and get a stop to the cheap knock-offs from being produced?
Rob Lee
Established Member
ByronBlack":1krpim79 said:
Hi -
Patents (which we do) take years, and cost $20K-$100K in legal fees . Then - you have to file in multiple jurisdictions. Then - you have have to be willing to defend them. Our last successful patent defense cost $600,000 in legal fees, and also took years.
Life's just too short for much of that.
Tilgear (who probably know no better) say in their flyer that the the planes are based on British designs... well - that edge plane is a direct copy of ours - unique body size and shape, side set screws, and floating blade lever.... it's a copy - plain and simple.
Copying is very cost effective... designing is not.
Rob
wizer
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When I started this thread I was not remotely thinking about copying designs at all. It hadn't even crossed my mind. So I'm completely behind you Rob, when you say that these people are scum. The only reason they have done this is to 'earn' money and probably don't care one bit about the end product.
In fact my original idea was completely the opposite to what these people are doing. I imagined a company making a quality product that the maker cared about in a similar way to Rob Lee and TLN. But using materials and tooling to cut costs but maintain quality. I have no idea if this is feasible and I think I have learned from this thread that it probably is not. I don't object to premium planes at all. I own some. This was not meant to attack either the big hitters or the small bespoke quality makers. I do think that if these Grant planes are indeed shoddily made, then the customers will eventually end up with a Veritas or a LN in their toolbox. Much like us power tool users that started with Ferm or NuTool and now have Jet and Festool (
).
In fact my original idea was completely the opposite to what these people are doing. I imagined a company making a quality product that the maker cared about in a similar way to Rob Lee and TLN. But using materials and tooling to cut costs but maintain quality. I have no idea if this is feasible and I think I have learned from this thread that it probably is not. I don't object to premium planes at all. I own some. This was not meant to attack either the big hitters or the small bespoke quality makers. I do think that if these Grant planes are indeed shoddily made, then the customers will eventually end up with a Veritas or a LN in their toolbox. Much like us power tool users that started with Ferm or NuTool and now have Jet and Festool (
).Rob,
Just for the record, I wasn't condoning buying knockoffs. The only point I was trying to get across was it would be interesting to find exactly how good (or bad) they are. Out of curiosity. I am fully behind you with respect to intellectual property theft et al, the Chinese just don't think the same way Westerners do. I have first hand experience of the problem, being a designer myself, and working with Chinese suppliers.
BTW, I have only Veritas planes in my cupboard! :wink:, and only respect for your efforts.
Ike
Just for the record, I wasn't condoning buying knockoffs. The only point I was trying to get across was it would be interesting to find exactly how good (or bad) they are. Out of curiosity. I am fully behind you with respect to intellectual property theft et al, the Chinese just don't think the same way Westerners do. I have first hand experience of the problem, being a designer myself, and working with Chinese suppliers.
BTW, I have only Veritas planes in my cupboard! :wink:, and only respect for your efforts.
Ike
ByronBlack
Established Member
I'm not sure this is such a massive problem for veritas - how many sales are there really going to be lost to a cheap product when your own products are in the upper-end (not talking about boutique stuff). I don't think the same person who was going to be buying that veritas bevel-up smoother is the same one that would be happy with a cheap chinese copy.
Hatherton_wood
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Had to happen sooner or later - I'm surprised chinese bedrock copies for example have not appeared a lot sooner. The LN's in particular after all are enhanced copies of the old Stanley's so I guess anybody can copy them. Its different with stuff still in patent. Really this is a problem because firms like Record and Stanley no longer what they used to of sufficient quality in this cheaper price range. I don't think it will affect the market the quality stuff from LN and Veritas - I certainly would not buy them.
Handworkfan
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intellectual property theft is a menace - and it is just what it says - theft. For a few years, I worked half-time for an employer adn half-time as a self-employed freelance writer, and found myself constantly having to explain to very nice, respectable adn not in the least criminally-minded people that they couldn't just run off copies of my work to send to their friends for free.
For writers, it's even more diffcult in some ways because people don't just produce a poor copy - they reproduce the real thing without paying a dime for it!
The damage caused by this was seen in music education in the 70s, when many of the best composers stopped writing music for schools because there wasn't any money in it as the schools just bought one legal copy and then illegally photocopied it.
Obviously, things are a little different in the case of engineering products, but the principle is the same: when someone has invested time adn skill in producing something excellent others should not be able just to freeload on the back of that.
I suspect that any copies of LV planes will be massively inferior - like counterfiet Levis - and probably won't be that much of a threat since LV's customer base is among discerning craftspeople who won't be taken in. but it's still reprehensible.
For writers, it's even more diffcult in some ways because people don't just produce a poor copy - they reproduce the real thing without paying a dime for it!
The damage caused by this was seen in music education in the 70s, when many of the best composers stopped writing music for schools because there wasn't any money in it as the schools just bought one legal copy and then illegally photocopied it.
Obviously, things are a little different in the case of engineering products, but the principle is the same: when someone has invested time adn skill in producing something excellent others should not be able just to freeload on the back of that.
I suspect that any copies of LV planes will be massively inferior - like counterfiet Levis - and probably won't be that much of a threat since LV's customer base is among discerning craftspeople who won't be taken in. but it's still reprehensible.
Dave S
Established Member
ByronBlack":2u1ojqx8 said:
The manufacturers and importers are still making money out of someone else's intellectual property, though.
Dave
Rob Lee
Established Member
Hi Ike -
Just realised I quoted your post when I replied... mine didn't really have anything to do with yours... so will pop back and edit it out! Sorry 'bout that!
Cheers -
Rob
(just back from a 3-2 win...)
Just realised I quoted your post when I replied... mine didn't really have anything to do with yours... so will pop back and edit it out! Sorry 'bout that!
Cheers -
Rob
(just back from a 3-2 win...)
Routermonster
Established Member
Rob
FWIW I wouldn't buy any one of these planes on principle, just as I haven't bought one of the cheap copies of Stanley planes that seem to be in all the catalogues these days.
When I started buying ‘proper’ hand tools a few years ago, I went down the e-bay route, hoping for good vintage Stanley or Record bargains. I managed to find a couple of decent ones, which I tuned up. The rest of the time it was a waste of money. Nowadays, if I want a new plane, I will save up for one. I have a couple of Veritas planes (and, I confess, one or two by LN and Clifton) and quite a few of Veritas’ other products. The LA Jack is a favourite. They're never cheap, but they're always a pleasure to use, because they’re functional, well-made, quality tools. It's funny how you forget how much they cost after a while!
I think your firm's reputation for innovation and quality is well-deserved.
Sorry if this is a bit long-winded; I guess what I am trying to say is - keep up the good work!
Les
FWIW I wouldn't buy any one of these planes on principle, just as I haven't bought one of the cheap copies of Stanley planes that seem to be in all the catalogues these days.
When I started buying ‘proper’ hand tools a few years ago, I went down the e-bay route, hoping for good vintage Stanley or Record bargains. I managed to find a couple of decent ones, which I tuned up. The rest of the time it was a waste of money. Nowadays, if I want a new plane, I will save up for one. I have a couple of Veritas planes (and, I confess, one or two by LN and Clifton) and quite a few of Veritas’ other products. The LA Jack is a favourite. They're never cheap, but they're always a pleasure to use, because they’re functional, well-made, quality tools. It's funny how you forget how much they cost after a while!
I think your firm's reputation for innovation and quality is well-deserved.
Sorry if this is a bit long-winded; I guess what I am trying to say is - keep up the good work!
Les
Handworkfan
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I agree - and I'm interested to see a number of people for whom the low-angle jack has become a favourite. Although it's not my only plane, it' sthe one I reach for automaticall. I've got a second cutter honed to the steepest angle I can get on the mk2 guide - 56 degrees, giving me a 68 deg EP - and I got a mirror finish on African Blackwood with that blade adn a close mouth setting - sanding would have been sacrilege!Routermonster":1o2660gm said:
It's a great tool - long may LV continue innovating and developing serious hand kit.
While the copyright, pattetns, etcetera, in their current form, are misused to to withhold information and knowledge that should be open to the public to monopolize and markets and exploit mankind, what happens with these Grant planes and others (inclusing the mentioning of the illegal photocopying of materials by schools and snatching recent works for ones own profit) is wrong.
Copying recent works and innovations, in a degraded form or not, is a extremely bad thing. (and has nothing to do with claiming intellectual ownership of the works of people contracted by a large companies, legally condoned to span about a century and more)
The sad thing is, people are buying these knockoffs, I know a few people who could be potential buyers, you will most probably know one or two or even be one of them. These companies know that there are people buying cheap knockoff products. It's not just a couple of people, its a large market that is willing to buy anything if the price is low. With tools this is no different. Just how many times have you heard somebody on one of the forums state they are in for a tool and on a budget, or state that they can't justify the costs of something that is expensive? (not implying that anybody that have ever typed this or something alike is supporting these copy cat companies)
Copying recent works and innovations, in a degraded form or not, is a extremely bad thing. (and has nothing to do with claiming intellectual ownership of the works of people contracted by a large companies, legally condoned to span about a century and more)
The sad thing is, people are buying these knockoffs, I know a few people who could be potential buyers, you will most probably know one or two or even be one of them. These companies know that there are people buying cheap knockoff products. It's not just a couple of people, its a large market that is willing to buy anything if the price is low. With tools this is no different. Just how many times have you heard somebody on one of the forums state they are in for a tool and on a budget, or state that they can't justify the costs of something that is expensive? (not implying that anybody that have ever typed this or something alike is supporting these copy cat companies)
Hatherton_wood
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Are other Grant planes than the four in the Tilgear catalogue made I wonder or are these the first? For these are all old Stanley designs really - they should not have made them to look just like LN's and the Veritas copy of the 95!
Copying out of patent items has always gone on. Record made exact copies of the Stanley Bench planes as they were in the early 1930's - so close you can exchange the frogs for example - all the features Stanley had on their planes at the time were copied. Looking back was this a bad thing? Even Stanley seem to be introducing new premium planes with somewhat similar styling to Veritas. In other cases e.g. drugs and agrochemicals other manufacturer's will produce their own cheaper versions as soon as they are out of patent. The original manufacturer has to move on and produce another new product to stay in business.
Like it or not its a jungle out there but nobody wants to see LN and Veritas not profit from their innovations otherwise we would not have the tools from them which we benefit from them today. I wonder though if having a cheaper alternative may even be good for the high end manufacturers if it brings more people into the use of hand tools and if they then realise there is better and more varied stuff out there which they can get if they can afford it? You have to realise too that the dramatic price rises here of LN and Veritas tools this year have sadly priced many people out of the high end and thus is opening up an opportunity which somebody somewhere is going to try and fill. I know a lot of people who would have bought this year if the prices here had not gone up the way they have - a lot of this due to the way the pound has fallen of course.
Copying out of patent items has always gone on. Record made exact copies of the Stanley Bench planes as they were in the early 1930's - so close you can exchange the frogs for example - all the features Stanley had on their planes at the time were copied. Looking back was this a bad thing? Even Stanley seem to be introducing new premium planes with somewhat similar styling to Veritas. In other cases e.g. drugs and agrochemicals other manufacturer's will produce their own cheaper versions as soon as they are out of patent. The original manufacturer has to move on and produce another new product to stay in business.
Like it or not its a jungle out there but nobody wants to see LN and Veritas not profit from their innovations otherwise we would not have the tools from them which we benefit from them today. I wonder though if having a cheaper alternative may even be good for the high end manufacturers if it brings more people into the use of hand tools and if they then realise there is better and more varied stuff out there which they can get if they can afford it? You have to realise too that the dramatic price rises here of LN and Veritas tools this year have sadly priced many people out of the high end and thus is opening up an opportunity which somebody somewhere is going to try and fill. I know a lot of people who would have bought this year if the prices here had not gone up the way they have - a lot of this due to the way the pound has fallen of course.
bugbear
Established Member
Hatherton_wood":1qg8s378 said:
No; it is feasible (the jury is still out in this particular case) to make an "identical" copy with similar materials and QC, and still under cut the original, since the knock off company has saved a HUGE amount in R&D costs.
This scenario represents a massive disincentive to be the first, and to incur R&D costs, so (long ago) the notion of copyrights, patents etc was introduced.
Freely granted "the mouse" has tried to take this idea too far, but the idea *is* sound.
BugBear
Hatherton_wood":1155qd02 said:
Let also not forget that multiple manufactures can legally mae the same product although one has a current pattents on a product or a feature of that product.
Also the instance of saying or implying Record copying Stanley designs is the same as what's going on with voiding patents and intellectual property theft is kind of incorrect. The relation between Record, Stanley Tool Works, Stanley Rule and Lever Company, The Stanley Works, Union Tool Company, Millers Falls and Sargent and their main designers Bailey, Miller and Traut is complex to say te least.
frugal
Established Member
There has been a lot of talk of copy-catting designs and patent infringement. I am curious to see exactly which patents LN, Veritas and Clifton currently hold. After all the basic design of the planes is almost identical to planes made in the 1930's.
Does anyone know of a way to search for a specific patent online. I have tried free-patents, but I can not find the right combination of search keywords
Does anyone know of a way to search for a specific patent online. I have tried free-patents, but I can not find the right combination of search keywords
Rob Lee
Established Member
frugal":36pe8u17 said:
Hi -
You are missing the point... it's about copying - not patent infringement.
If we were talking about music - your statment would be akin to saying that are are no new notes... so how would a different arrangement of old notes possibly be protected?
There is an expenditure of time and expertise (and tremendous expense) to develop a new design - and virtually no expertise or expense to copy it.
In the case of the edge trimming block plane - It's a size and shape never made before (by Stanley, or anyone else) with an adjuster that's new, and the pivot side set-screws... even the exact shape of the lever cap is copied.
In any event - the firm that produced this plane, has also produced exact copies of our (and other's) patented product....tools that never existed before each of them were made by the original inventors. In addition - the firm also uses our photographs and text to market the copies.
Like I said - it's morally indefensibe. If consumers choose to reward the behaviour - there's little that can be done to stop it... at least, not at the volumes and scale of this industry.
Rob Lee
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