President Elect's 'top team'

[Jacob]

Perhaps you should ask the 384,000 British soldiers who lost their lives and the families of those who fought and died. I'm sure they will have an opinion regarding the fighting and the millions of people coming here to take advantage of what the people of this country have worked and died for but are considered racists because they object to their nation being taken advantage of!

https://www.google.com/search?q=bri...MjIwOTVqMGo0qAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Jake]

Putin doesn't trust the West and historically for good reason so it's not hard to see why he would want a buffer zone between Russia and what we call the West.

He's not entitled to a buffer zone if his sovereign neighbours don't agree.

 

[RobinBHM]

Putin doesn't trust the West and historically for good reason so it's not hard to see why he would want a buffer zone between Russia and what we call the West

That’s framing Putin as the victim.

Putin only responds to strength, he must be kicked out of Ukraine

 

[Spectric]

And I have not said that we need to go to war. What we need to do is to stop pussy cat cat cat footing around and give Ukraine the means to resolve the situation themselves.

Yes exactly, we do that and now as far as Russia is concerned it has become a war with NATO and for what purpose, if it ever reached the point where Russia could see Ukraine wining then who knows what would be used to change the direction, Ukraine has several large nuclear plants which could become a Chernobyl event or they might use tactical battlefield nukes to level things up and that is the point, there is no way Ukraine will come out on top so rather than Zelensky slowly but surely deplete his armed forces he needs to talk and come out with something otherwise he will run out of armed forces.

Bulls**t about it amounting to direct NATO involvement is just that.

Whether it is actually NATO involvement or not, it is the perception that is the issue. If Putin perceives NATO involvement for whatever reason it gives him the excuses to use more against Ukraine and political gain.

For a start who said anything about China. They seem to be playing their usual long game.

China has gained a lot from the war in Ukraine, energy for one as they buy a lot of Russian crude at the expense of Saudi and take huge volumes of gas which has made the western sanctions inaffective. Then we have western technology, you can guarantee that a lot of western military hardware captured in Ukraine will end up in China so as they can understand our systems and develop both defensive measures and maybe technological advantage. Lets also not forget that the west continues to raise all sorts of concerns about China, basically just winding them up the wrong way so who do you think they will buddy up with.

Russia and China are working together, working on defence systems and China has supplied Russia with advanced drones, they both see the west as a potntial threat.

take a read

https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/SSI-Media/Recent-Publications/Display/Article/390856

Tony why did you support Saddam Hussein?

Like him or hate him Saddam if nothing else did keep reasonable peace in the middle east, we took him out and now look at the mess.

 

[ey_tony]

Tony why did you support Saddam Hussein?

Did I actually say I supported Saddam Hussein? If so where did I say it?

I said the war criminal Tony Blair was complicit with Bush in engaging in an illegal war with a sovereign nation and effecting regime change based entirely on LIES and Western propaganda looking for any excuse to justify their attacks which arguably had an underlying agenda which not only laid waste to an entire sovereign nation but was also responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands of innocent people from which that nation let alone the region still hasn't recovered and then you have the audacity to ask me why did I support Saddam?

It's not a case of supporting Saddam, it's a case of supporting what is right and what is not and you appear unable to differentiate between the two.

Pointing out that Blair and Bush are arguably war criminals is not supporting Saddam. Putin has had the same accusations levelled at him by the very people who were quite willing to support the illegal war created by Blair but they have not called for Blair to be held accountable for his monstrous lies and the death and destruction he was complicit in.

That's the problem with debating with left wing zealots and extremists, they are so shallow minded and lacking mental capacity that they inevitably look for any ways to attack the person with whom they're debating rather than enter a debate which is clearly above their heads and your question is a perfect example of that.

 

[ey_tony]

That’s framing Putin as the victim.

Putin only responds to strength, he must be kicked out of Ukraine

Even if it risks the potential of nuclear war if not handled correctly? Good idea, why bother with negotiations when you can simply fight it out.

Exactly what strong arm tactics would you suggest using in order to kick out Putin from Ukraine?

As for your puerile point about framing Putin as a victim....once again your inability to comprehend the depth of the argument shines through.
If you look at the way the West has treated Russia since their revolution, only a fool could not see that the West has never given the Russians any reason to trust the West...especially during and after WW2 ...and have you never heard the term 'Cold War'?

After the break up of the FSU, the West had the opportunity to bring Russia in from the cold so to speak but instead chose to marginalise it with a Western European ideological agenda further expanding eastward so we are where we are with that one and to anyone with an open mind it's not difficult to see why rightly or wrongly the Russians don't trust the West and nothing to do with them being victims.

 

[Chris Puttick]

Brexit was was the people voted for. Populism seems to be the new word for the people's choice. I'd go with that.
The people decided.

No, it wasn't what "the people" voted for. It was a small proportion of people, who voted without any clear idea of what Brexit meant.

 

[Chris Puttick]

Even if it risks the potential of nuclear war if not handled correctly? Good idea, why bother with negotiations when you can simply fight it out.

Exactly what strong arm tactics would you suggest using in order to kick out Putin from Ukraine?

As for your puerile point about framing Putin as a victim....once again your inability to comprehend the depth of the argument shines through.
If you look at the way the West has treated Russia since their revolution, only a fool could not see that the West has never given the Russians any reason to trust the West...especially during and after WW2 ...and have you never heard the term 'Cold War'?

After the break up of the FSU, the West had the opportunity to bring Russia in from the cold so to speak but instead chose to marginalise it with a Western European ideological agenda further expanding eastward so we are where we are with that one and to anyone with an open mind it's not difficult to see why rightly or wrongly the Russians don't trust the West and nothing to do with them being victims.

So any nation with nuclear weapons should be allowed to annex any other nation or part thereof? Might is right I suppose.

 

[Fergie 307]

Even if it risks the potential of nuclear war if not handled correctly? Good idea, why bother with negotiations when you can simply fight it out.

Exactly what strong arm tactics would you suggest using in order to kick out Putin from Ukraine?

As for your puerile point about framing Putin as a victim....once again your inability to comprehend the depth of the argument shines through.
If you look at the way the West has treated Russia since their revolution, only a fool could not see that the West has never given the Russians any reason to trust the West...especially during and after WW2 ...and have you never heard the term 'Cold War'?

After the break up of the FSU, the West had the opportunity to bring Russia in from the cold so to speak but instead chose to marginalise it with a Western European ideological agenda further expanding eastward so we are where we are with that one and to anyone with an open mind it's not difficult to see why rightly or wrongly the Russians don't trust the West and nothing to do with them being victims.

Very difficult to reason with anyone who's knowledge of history appears to be confined to what they had for breakfast.
The Soviets started the war as allies of the Nazis, and joined them in invading and committing countless atrocities in Poland.
When their former ally turned on them they came to us for help, and it was given.
How did they behave afterwards?
You really do need to do some research on the forced annexation of countries by the Soviets after the war, the circumstances surrounding the Berlin airlift and so forth.
Very hard to see how you can blame the west for these things, they were entirely the result of aggressive expansion on the part of the Soviet Union.
None helped by the extremely naive view of Stalin and his motives by FDR and Eisenhower. Both were taken for mugs. Churchill was probably the only one of them who saw Stalin for the monster that he was.

 

[Chris152]

Very difficult to reason with anyone who's knowledge of history appears to be confined to what they had for breakfast.

Thanks Fergie, I now have choked-up coffee all over my keyboard. What a lovely line, I'm going to see if I can use it elsewhere.

 

[Scruples]

Scruples, you haven’t addressed any of the points I made in the post you responded to.

How the public voted is not related to the reasons behind the wealthy people who wanted it.

It’s the same in the American election. Elon Musk didn’t throw money at Trump because he cares about ordinary working people, Musk did it for vested interests

Politics is about hidden agendas.

Did the wealthy people want Brexit? Hmm... I think the wealthy, being in the minority, were just out voted. After all, there are far fewer wealthy people that average people.
Whatever the 'hidden' agendas, if there was such a thing, the people made the choice. Cameron quickly moved out and Boris carried it forward. It's funny how the right person for the job seems to appear just when they're wanted. Churchill, Thatcher, Johnson to name but a few.

 

[Fergie 307]

Thanks Fergie, I now have choked-up coffee all over my keyboard. What a lovely line, I'm going to see if I can use it elsewhere.

I just makes me laugh. When you look at the lies spun by Stalin, particularly in the last months of the war, and yet according to Tony it was the Soviets who had cause to mistrust us.
I can only assume he has some Soviet era school history text book, world history according to uncle Joe, probably with a portrait of the great man on the fly leaf.

 

[RobinBHM]

Did the wealthy people want Brexit? Hmm... I think the wealthy, being in the minority, were just out voted.

Boris Johnson - wanted Brexit, because it was a route to power

Farage wanted Brexit, because it was a route to power.

Farages mates Tice, Habib etc wanted Brexit

Billionaire owners of Daily, Express, Daily Telegraph, The Sun, all wanted brexit

Putin wanted Brexit because it damaged the EU

Tufton street ghouls wanted brexit because they and their backers are wealthy disaster capitalists.

ERG nutters in Conservative Party wanted Brexit to further their careers and opportunities for them in making money out a US trade deal etc

Crispin Odin a hedge founder wanted Brexit to make money out of it.


All of those people used propaganda on ordinary working people to vote against their best interests.

 

[RobinBHM]

As for your puerile point about framing Putin as a victim....once again your inability to comprehend the depth of the argument shines through.

Blaming the West for Putin invading Ukraine is framing Putin as the victim.

Tony if you think that’s wrong, please show me the evidence that Putin was forced to invade Ukraine by the West.

NATO didn’t threaten Russia
Ukraine never threatened Russia
Countries neighbouring Russia didn’t threaten Russia
USA didn’t threaten Russia

Yes the West helped Ukraine to defend itself….because Putin had been threatening the region for years.

 

[RobinBHM]

The people on here who think making a deal with Putin will bring peace are simply wrong.

Trump is definitely wrong, he has made it clear he will cut all funding to Ukraine…..that simply sends a message to Putin that he has won.

Trump agreed a surrender deal with the Taliban….that worked out well eh.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

No, it wasn't what "the people" voted for. It was a small proportion of people, who voted without any clear idea of what Brexit meant.

There is a longstanding convention in our UK democracy the outcome is based upon those who actually bother to vote, and the winner is the one getting most votes.

If you don't vote your views are of no account.

That folk believed B / S fed to them by the Brexiteers does not change the outcome. Responsibility rests with Remainers who failed to communicate so convincing a story, and (perhaps) general public naivety arising from and inadequate educational system.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Boris Johnson - wanted Brexit, because it was a route to power

Farage wanted Brexit, because it was a route to power.

Farages mates Tice, Habib etc wanted Brexit

Billionaire owners of Daily, Express, Daily Telegraph, The Sun, all wanted brexit

Putin wanted Brexit because it damaged the EU

Tufton street ghouls wanted brexit because they and their backers are wealthy disaster capitalists.

ERG nutters in Conservative Party wanted Brexit to further their careers and opportunities for them in making money out a US trade deal etc

Crispin Odin a hedge founder wanted Brexit to make money out of it.


All of those people used propaganda on ordinary working people to vote against their best interests.

And ordinary working people believed them. And the intelligent who wanted to remain were incapable of putting forward a sufficiently convincing argument to persuade them otherwise.

That a democratic debate and vote goes against your strongly held view is not some kind conspiracy - the success of the Brexiteers is a reflection of an inadequate Remain campaign.

 

[Blackswanwood]

There is a longstanding convention in our UK democracy the outcome is based upon those who actually bother to vote, and the winner is the one getting most votes.

If you don't vote your views are of no account.

That folk believed B / S fed to them by the Brexiteers does not change the outcome. Responsibility rests with Remainers who failed to communicate so convincing a story, and (perhaps) general public naivety arising from and inadequate educational system.

I agree wholeheartedly Terry. It perplexes me why people (from both sides of the argument) keep banging on about Brexit.

 

[John Brown]

The people campaigning for remain should've told bigger lies, like the other lot. So it's their fault really. Same with the US elections. Fight liar with liar, that's the way forward.

 

[Jacob]

There is a longstanding convention in our UK democracy the outcome is based upon those who actually bother to vote, and the winner is the one getting most votes.

If you don't vote your views are of no account.

But they did not vote for what we eventually got, or failed to get, in this case.
MPs are not simply delegates directed to follow instructions. We elect them as our representatives to work on our behalf, which may work against public opinion, may not even be what they promised. The referendum was not binding - it was an opinion poll, albeit badly worded.
We then pass judgement in future elections.

That folk believed B / S fed to them by the Brexiteers does not change the outcome. Responsibility rests with Remainers who failed to communicate so convincing a story, and (perhaps) general public naivety arising from and inadequate educational system.

Responsibility lies with Johnson, the leave lobby, and the government, who together failed to deliver what was promised, which was supposed to be a brave new world, not merely to leave under any terms and conditions.